Argo (2012) / Rare Character The Exceptional Series 11-Year Malt Whiskey ft. Daniel Joyaux

[Brad]
In 2012, director and star Ben Affleck gave the world a tense drama that escaped with the Academy's votes.

[Bob]
In 2025, we drink a whiskey that's literally nothing but superlatives. The film is Argo. The whiskey is Rare Character, The Exceptional Series.

And we'll review them both. This is The Film and Whiskey Podcast. Welcome to The Film and Whiskey Podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey.

I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And this week, we are looking at the 2012 Best Picture-winning film, Argo.

[Brad]
I believe it's pronounced Ar-go-fuck-yourself.

[Bob]
Yes. I was going to say, how long could we go without saying it? And the answer is 12 seconds.

So we did it. Congratulations, Brad.

[Brad]
I usually am a stickler for the proper pronunciation of titles, but I believe that this one just deserves as many mentions as possible. Yes. 100%.

[Bob]
So we're recording a little bit later in the evening, folks, than Brad and I typically do. Just about a half hour later, we had to push back our recording a bit. And I've just been sitting here scrolling YouTube shorts, waiting on Brad and our guest, whom I will intro shortly.

And Brad, I came across a scene from the film The Sixth Sense. It's the scene with Haley Joel Osment and Toni Collette in the car at the end of the movie. Oh, yeah.

Where he's talking to her about how her dead mom saw her dance and does she make her proud. And bro, I am an absolute wreck coming into this recording. And that scene, I'm going to be honest with you guys, that scene is so good that I kind of forgot everything about the movie Argo.

And so I have my cheat sheet pulled up right here in front of me. I love Argo a lot. There's no Toni Collette or Haley Joel Osment in the movie Argo, Brad.

[Brad]
They absolutely are not. I am curious, you know, today he almost needs no introduction at this point, but I'll say it anyways. Our esteemed guest is the one and only Oscar pundit extraordinaire Daniel Joyeux.

Welcome back onto the podcast. Like what? Two weeks later.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

[Brad]
I was going to say it's like I think it's three appearances in a month here. Yeah, it's wild. Where does Haley Joel Osment and Toni Collette stand out for you as a scene in your memory, Daniel?

[Daniel Joyaux]
I'm not the biggest Shyamalan fan, so I confess I haven't seen Sixth Sense in a very long time. For me, the holy grail of Toni Collette performances will always be about a boy.

[Bob]
Oh, nice. At least you're not doing the A24 Stan thing and talking about her as good as that performance was.

[Daniel Joyaux]
But, you know, yeah, she'll always be the mom and about a boy. That was the best part of juror number two was the reunion, the reunion of Toni Collette and Nicholas Holmes, whose name I couldn't remember.

[Bob]
We just talked about juror number two, Brad. Another great little potboiler of a movie. And I think that actually provides a better segue into our movie for the day than talking about the Sixth Sense, because I cannot find any connective tissue there whatsoever.

We're talking about Argo today, folks. And if this is your first time joining us on Film and Whiskey, welcome in. We talk about movies.

We talk about whiskey. This season, what we're doing is we're looking at films from the last 20 years and we're asking the question, does this film deserve to be considered a modern masterpiece? Now, we don't have to answer that question quite yet, but something tells me that our friend Daniel here is probably going to answer in the affirmative because Daniel, you picked this movie to come on and talk to us about this season.

So, you know, without spoiling or let's bury the lead a little bit, I guess is what I'm saying. Tell us why this movie from among the list we sent you.

[Daniel Joyaux]
So in the list you guys sent me, I think I sent you three options. And if I'm remembering right, it was Argo, Walla Land and Spotlight were the three that I said I would do. All three of which I consider myself a pretty diehard fan of.

All three that I think are absolute masterpieces. But I'm excited you picked Argo. I mean, I love this movie.

So I, you know, I rewatched it tonight and I wrote a bunch of notes on my phone of points I want to hit in the first thing I wrote down is basically a question I want to ask you both and sort of just a general conceptual question for our discussion of the movie is what makes for a perfect Hollywood movie?

[Brad]
It has to be about making a Hollywood movie.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I mean, no big mystery. I think this is in a lot of ways, the perfect Hollywood movie, not the perfect movie. Certainly not the most, not the greatest piece of artistic cinema.

But in terms of Hollywood, creating mass entertainment that sort of has a point and sort of makes you feel good and is exciting and is funny and has charisma and has stars and shows off everything that Hollywood can do. This is to me a perfect Hollywood movie.

[Bob]
You know, I think I think you're on something here and we'll we'll dive a little deeper on this, but off the top of my head, you know, like I think of a movie like Jurassic Park. And I actually don't think that the two films are dissimilar in terms of what I identify in them. You have to have, I think, for a great Hollywood movie, you've got to have Hollywood production values, right?

Like this movie feels like a movie because it's big enough to be a movie made by Hollywood. I think you have to have you have to have elements to the film that can only be done in a movie. And by that, I mean like they take some significant license with the events that happened in reality.

And I'm glad that they did that in this movie because it makes it a better movie like this does not need to be a documentary. I'm glad that they adapted it to be a movie. And then I think the third thing is like you have to have a level of just overall competence.

And I think that like that sounds like a very low bar to set, but a movie like this, I think the floor on this movie is like a seven and a half or an eight. I don't know anyone that watched this movie and thought like, meh, like not a well-made movie. There has to be like a baseline level of competence for a great Hollywood movie.

And this one has it in spades. Yep. Boom.

No arguments from anybody.

[Brad]
I love it. Absolutely not, man. I think that this movie like accomplishes a few different things like it kind of succeeds as a spy thriller.

It kind of succeeds as a drama. It kind of succeeds as a historical, you know, mostly historically accurate biopic of sorts. Like it kind of does all of these things.

And the thread that runs through all of them is tension. And like, I think he does a really great job of building tension throughout the movie in such a way that by the time you hit the end, it reminds me a tiny bit of like a Captain Phillips where, you know, it starts off with the lowest stakes in the world. And that, you know, that movie is a masterclass of just ratcheting up tension as the movie progresses.

I think that Affleck as a director here has a similar quality that makes all of the different genres that this like dips its toes into succeed. Yeah.

[Daniel Joyaux]
And to your point about tension, I mean, obviously everyone knows Argo won Best Picture, won three Oscars. The other two that it won were adapted screenplay and editing. And those are the two things that I think build the tension so well.

And something fascinating about the screenplay is, you know, you hear all the time when you discuss screenwriting with people is the great concept of the three of the three act story. Something I love about Argo is it doesn't have a three act story as much as it has a three location story. It's kind of three movies at once.

There's a Hollywood movie, there's an Iran movie, and there's a Washington, D.C. movie. And the script and the editing balance those three so well in combining it into one whole.

[Brad]
It's almost like you're following Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli and Frodo and Sam and Gollum and Merriam-Pippen.

[Bob]
It's incredible. I'm so glad that you just got inspired because I think Daniel may have just actually unlocked for me my let's make it a double for the day with what he just said. But I'm getting ahead of ourselves here, Brad, because let's make it a double as our last segment of the day.

We have to get to our first segment of the day, which we call Brad Explains.

[MUSIC]
Brad's gonna give us the movie plot with only 60 seconds ticking on the clock. So let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call Brad Explains.

[Bob]
Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen often for the first time. Brad, was this your first time with Argo?

[Brad]
Uh, this is my second time watching Argo. I I'm pretty sure I saw it. Uh, I don't know, like 2014, 15, 16, sometime in that area.

So it has been probably a decade since I've seen it.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Bob, did you see it in theaters? I did. Yeah.

So something I distinctly remember about seeing in theaters is at the end when they finally escape, you know, when the, when the pilot on the flight makes the announcement, they've left Iranian airspace. My theater burst out in applause. Do you have any memory of that happening?

[Bob]
No, I don't. But it's also because I usually go see movies at like the matinee when it's like me and a bunch of 80 year olds. So it may have been scattered applause, but yes.

No, you've identified, like, I think one of the key things about this movie and it is that it is just a good old fashioned crowd pleaser of a film and it's the first one we've ever had on this show, Brad, where the line that makes people clap in the movie theater is in celebration of serving alcohol. So like what a great film for us to talk about today, dude.

[Brad]
Absolutely, man. Yeah, that it's funny because they do a good job of like the entering into the airspace and they take away his drink. Hey, we're going to stop serving alcohol.

It almost feels like a throwaway, like, oh, yeah, it's, you know, they're in a Muslim country's airspace, so they don't serve alcohol like you don't really think much of it until the moment the they're flying back and the P.A. Ding happens and you're like, oh, they're about to say that they can have alcohol. They're set like it's a really beautiful, like buried lead almost of like this is going to be the thing that breaks the tension like in Die Hard at the beginning on the plane when the guy tells him that the key to surviving air travel is to take off your shoes and take this with your toes.

[Daniel Joyaux]
You don't think anything of it until then. Bruce Willis is barefoot the whole movie, and it matters.

[Bob]
All right, Brad, we're getting off track, man. You've got 60 seconds to break down the plot of this movie. I want you to spoil the whole thing.

It is a historical document, so people can very easily go look up what happened here. Brad, 60 seconds and go.

[Brad]
Argo is a film that follows CIA agent Tony Mendez, who is an exfiltration specialist, as he plans and then puts into action a covert operation to retrieve six U.S. citizens who are stuck in the Canadian embassy during the 1979 riots and overthrow of the Shah in Iran.

[Bob]
And they do it and they do it. And then Ben Affleck kisses his wife with an American flag in the background. He it's almost like a true lies.

Yeah, except it's the searchers shot, right? It's like from inside the door. Sure.

What's outside America? That's what's outside America. Wonderful.

[Brad]
Yeah, there's there's no atomic bomb going off over Cuba.

[Bob]
All right, guys, let's dive into talking about the movie. And I think we've kind of already started talking about Affleck as a filmmaker. We've talked about the tension.

We've talked about the way the film is structured. I think let's start with the the behind the camera Affleck before we move to the in front of camera Affleck. And I mentioned how I think competence is a big part of this movie.

And I mean that in a really positive way. Brad, this is our second film directed by Ben Affleck on the podcast after Gone Baby Gone. I don't think that I will ever.

I don't think Ben Affleck will ever make a movie better than Gone Baby Gone to me. That's a perfect movie. I think that is like a 10 out of 10 movie.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Does the Celtics coach know you guys haven't done the town yet?

[Bob]
No, no, we have not done the town, which is the shocking. But Brad, I think with Affleck, I kept thinking about movie makers like like a Ron Howard, a guy who is really competent in a lot of really disparate genres. Like the guy makes Apollo 13.

He makes Cinderella Man. He can do OK-ish thrillers, I guess, with like the first DaVinci Code movie if you want to. Rush is a great movie.

But I think what Affleck does so well is he throws back to styles of movie making that he appreciated when he was younger. And when this film came out, a ton of the notices on this film mentioned that it mimics 70s crime and suspense thrillers in the way that it's paced and plotted. It's not big and bombastic.

It's about the characters. And I think that Affleck succeeds the most when he is in the mode of throwback filmmaker.

[Brad]
Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair that it reminded me just enough of something like the holdovers where they like really tried to make everything look like it was era appropriate and not just like obviously the costuming and set design, but like the actual presentation of the film as if it was a film from the I don't know, was that movie the 70s, 60s or 70s? That was 70s.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, the holdovers was like 1970.

[Brad]
Yeah, so they do enough of that here that you really get the vibe that Affleck understands the era super well. And I don't know. He probably would have been somewhat young when this happened, right?

He would have been born in like the early 70s. So I would just be curious of his own experience to think about what an impression an event like this would have had on him.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Affleck was born in 72.

[Bob]
There you go. Okay. So yeah, I mean, I've always looked to the seven year olds for their expertise on geopolitical.

[Brad]
I would say your kids about seven, eight years old right now.

[Bob]
Go ask him about what's going on in the world. Every night I check in with him on politics corner with my son.

[Brad]
Hey, you never know, man. Maybe he'll be directing a film 30 years from now about things happening in the world.

[Bob]
I don't even want to think about that right now. Daniel, let's talk a little bit more about Affleck as a filmmaker. Do you think this is your favorite of the films that he has helmed?

And what do you think of him overall and what he's best at?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, this is definitely my favorite. But I think that he's directed five movies. And I think four of them have been basically really good.

Live by Night is the exception. I don't think Live by Night is quite as awful as its reputation, but it is not good. But his other four movies.

[Brad]
What a glowing recommendation.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Well, I mean, I recently wrote a piece for The Ringer about best picture follow-ups. And let's just say Live by Night was not a contender to make my list of the best ones. But his other four films.

So there's this. This is 2012. The Town was 2010.

Gone Baby Gone was 2007. And then Air was what? 2021, 22, something in there.

Those are four really good movies. And you were talking about filmmaker comps for him. I think Ridley Scott makes a lot of sense.

I think Sidney Lumet to some degree makes a lot of sense. I mean, the very best of Sidney Lumet is better than Affleck. I don't think Affleck's going to direct Network or Dog Afternoon.

But the next tier down is Sidney Lumet, which is essentially most Sidney Lumet movies. I think that's pretty much on par with Ben Affleck's movies. He's just.

[Bob]
I was going to say, and I think that that's such a fair comparison because Lumet was known for being just a workman like director. He could go in and out of different genres because he didn't have like one super defined style. And I think that's where we've talked a little bit about auteur theory on this podcast.

And I think people paint in broad strokes when it comes to talking about auteurs. But one of the downsides is having such a recognizable style that you cannot operate outside of that style. We're talking about a Tarantino here.

I don't see Tarantino being able to jump genres the way that an Affleck can do. And I think that's to his credit, right?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah. I mean, totally. And Ridley Scott's the same.

Ridley Scott has, I think, some calling cards in terms of the way the editing is, or the focus on production design. But for the most part, any of Affleck's movies, you could tell someone that's a Ridley Scott movie and they wouldn't be surprised by that.

[Brad]
I mean, it kind of reminds me a little bit of Rob Reiner. Like we've talked many times about his ability to pump out like B plus to A minus movies. From This Is Spinal Tap to Misery to When Harry Met Sally.

The dude can do it all at a really high level. And he doesn't have like an A plus top 50 movie all time on the record. But I think similarly to Affleck, he can run around the genre gambit and give anyone a run for their money.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Well, and in the way I was saying that Argo, I think, is a perfect Hollywood movie. You can say the same thing about A Few Good Men. I think they have a lot of the same sort of DNA in terms of what they're going for with an audience response.

[Bob]
Yeah. Let's go in a little bit on that, Daniel, because you've brought that up a couple times now of like what makes this a perfect Hollywood movie. If you had to kind of elucidate, what is it going for in terms of audience response and what are the parts of the movie that you find hit that the best?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Ann Thompson, an editor for IndieWire, when she's been writing about the Oscars for a really long time, and she has a phrase that I'm pretty sure she's the person that coined this. I apologize if that's incorrect, but I'm pretty sure it was her. She has a phrase she uses called the steak eaters, which is how she describes a certain type of Academy voter that what they look for in their best picture vote is a movie, you know, a classic Hollywood movie about great men doing great things and you feel good afterwards and you feel like you watched not just a film achievement, but a film that is about achievement.

And, you know, every year when she talks about the Oscars, she openly asks, you know, who are the steak eaters going to vote for? Because there are a lot of Academy members that fit in the steak eater category. Argo is in a lot of ways, the perfect steak eater movie.

It's a period piece. It is about a great man doing a great thing. It is about Hollywood literally saving six lives.

It's about the CIA doing something that people can be proud of instead of like what, you know, it's not about the CIA performing a coup d'etat. It's about them actually saving lives.

[Brad]
You know, South America is completely effed. But those sex, those six people, we got them out, baby.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Exactly. You know, Argo is just it is it's the perfect version of that kind of movie. And I understand if that's not the kind of movie people gravitate toward.

But if you do, how can you not love Argo?

[Bob]
Yeah. Well, and I think part of what you're getting at, too, here is like we've already mentioned it, the structure of the movie. It's so well done in terms of the editing and the cinematography, but it does get back to this script.

And it's a it's a super well regarded script in Hollywood. And I think it's because it is kind of like the perfect treatment of act one, act two, act three, you know, points that are developing complicating factors. It is like a classic Hollywood tale.

What I am wondering, though, is the the Hollywood of it all. And I think we might as well get this out of the way. Now, the Oscars have a reputation which is somewhat undeserved for only wanting to honor themselves and honor movies about Hollywood.

And this was a reputation that it had developed over a long time that was not true. I remember back in I think I've mentioned this before, Brad, back in like 2004, I think it was the Aviator had been considered the odds on favorite to win Best Picture for a long time. And then, you know, Million Dollar Baby upsets it.

And it actually was shown after that that like movies about movie making had been nominated a bunch and they'd never really won Best Picture. You can go back to like Sunset Boulevard getting beaten by All About Eve, a movie about theater, not about Hollywood. But then you get back to back Oscar winners in 2011, 2012 with The Artist and Argo.

And then that reputation is now totally deserved. And I am wondering, did the like excessive winking at Hollywood rub you the wrong way at any point in this movie? Because I have one specific line where I was like, all right, this is a little this is a little much for me.

But did you guys find that they balanced it well or did it kind of get at you a little bit, too?

[Daniel Joyaux]
I thought it was well balanced. It's it's surprising because when you think about Argo, you obviously think of the Hollywood elements in the plot. But when you're actually watching the movie, it's probably only a 15 to 20 minute sequence that they're in Hollywood.

It's a it's a pretty small percentage of the movie.

[Brad]
Yeah, I didn't have any issues at all with the Hollywoodization of it, I guess. Like they're in, they're out. It's not a major part of the story to me, if I'm being honest.

I don't feel like this is a movie about Hollywood. Like, I can see how it could get lumped in with that, you know, when it's put that way in the Oscars. But to me, this movie isn't really about Hollywood because Hollywood saving this.

These six people came down to like two old guys, like a costume designer and a producer being like, hey, we're going to help you out. And that feels less that like the Hollywood machine saving these people.

[Bob]
The line for me that tipped it over the edge a little bit is when you have Alan Arkin saying, oh, you think the Ayatollah is bad? Try the WGA. But it was like the worst routine on Johnny Carson where he does not get called over to the couch afterwards.

It was 1960s Vegas nightclub performer for me.

[Daniel Joyaux]
You're going to hear the drum, the drum tap.

[Bob]
A hundred percent, man. But, you know, again, in a movie where it's Hollywood people patting each other on the back and winking at the camera, like you're going to have some of those lines. I do think for the most part, Brad, I'm with you.

They keep the focus on the political intrigue in Iran. And once Tony gets there, I mean, like the balance shifts even more in favor of the what's actually happening on the ground. They only cut back to John Goodman two or three times for the rest of the film.

And I think that's a really smart decision because that's where the stakes are. And if you keep giving more time to the people in Washington or in Hollywood, you're implying that the stakes are even and they deserve equal time and they just don't.

[Brad]
Yeah, once Affleck is boots on the ground, working with them to understand their cover story, going to the bazaar like that is the stuff that demands your attention. And I think that's, you know, earlier I talked about the thread of tension that runs throughout this film. Affleck as a director knows where to keep your attention because like an audience's attention is the most important thing you need to hold on to.

And if you're going to make a tense political drama, then then like you have to be very selective about where you are going to keep people's attention. Like, you know, we just reviewed Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Tarantino's making a buddy movie like you can meander around the film as much as you want.

You can't do that here. Affleck knows that and he delivers.

[Bob]
All right, guys, why don't we jump in front of the camera here and talk about the performances? And I don't want to start all the way at the bottom of the cast list, except to say just a ridiculous amount of like small bit player. That guy kind of roles in this.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I want you to see on my notes app. I wrote down a list of the character actors because I wanted to read it in.

[Bob]
Yeah, go for it, man. Read it. Read them off, please.

[Daniel Joyaux]
So when you talk about what are the films that have the just most stacked, you know, list of supporting characters and character actors, the one that always comes up is JFK, which I think is kind of the gold standard. I would put Argo not quite on JFK's level, but like probably top five list of like most stacked supporting character actor slate. So I wrote it down alphabetically.

You got Alan Arkin, Brian Cranston, Kyle Chandler, Rory Cochran, who is in Dazed and Confused and is reuniting with Affleck here. Tate Donovan, Clea Duvall, Victor Garber, John Goodman, Bob Gunton, who is the warden in Shawshank Redemption, Philip Baker Hall, Philip Baker Hall, who everyone probably knows from PTA movies, Zyko Ivanek, which you might not recognize the name, but you'll recognize his face from a million movies. Richard Kind, who the Internet has recently fallen in love with.

Scoop McNary, who has the greatest character actor name of all time. Chris Messina, who's also been in other Affleck movies. He was a main character in Air and Michael Parks, who was in the Kill Bill movies.

That is a stacked lineup.

[Bob]
Yeah. And you've left off Affleck at the top of it, like, you know, and the great thing about Affleck is he's always been an A-list czar, but he is he's A-list at a level where like he's the top person in your movie and he doesn't distract from anybody underneath him. It's not like you got like the top of the top of the star meter rankings on IMDb.

It's not like this is a Denzel movie or a Leo movie where the the brightness of the star kind of separates itself from everybody else in the cast list. I'm with you, man. I think that everybody else in this movie has at one point in their career been a character actor.

And because of that, even if they have a bigger role like a Bryan Cranston or a John Goodman, they're playing within the confines and the parameters of that role. And no one's no one's upstaging anybody else. It works beautifully.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Something I really wanted to point out about the casting of the movie that I so in in the town, which was 2010, one of the other major roles was Jon Hamm. In Argo, which is 2012, two of the other major roles are Bryan Cranston, Bryan Cranston and Kyle Chandler. I feel like those were the first major film roles for all three of those actors.

And in all three cases, it was Ben Affleck poaching someone who was basically the biggest TV actor at the time and giving them their first major film role in a key character actor role.

[Bob]
Yeah, I didn't even think about that. That's a great point. I'm thinking about Kyle Chandler, and we just watched him a few weeks ago, Brad, in The Wolf of Wall Street.

[Brad]
But that's a year after the year after the scene of Kyle Chandler and Leo on the boat is just incredible. What a great scene. Talk about like peak bit actor just nailing what he needed to do opposite Leo.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Kyle Chandler is also in Zero Dark Thirty, which came out just a few months after.

[Brad]
Oh, that's right.

[Daniel Joyaux]
And he goes toe to toe with Jessica Chastain in that one.

[Bob]
All right, guys, let's talk about Affleck, because I do want to talk about specific performances, but I don't know where to start, because to Daniel's point, like they're all character actors. They all have solidly supporting roles, so you can pick and choose. Let's talk about Affleck in the lead.

I've always really liked Ben Affleck as an actor, and I like that he's such good friends with Damon, and I like how well he and Damon play off each other when they are in a movie together, because they both have such wildly different strengths as actors. One of the things I've always loved about Ben Affleck is his ability to be like sullen and sensitive at the same time. He doesn't just seem like a bummer of a person.

He seems like somebody who has the weight of the world on his shoulders. I love that he always looks like he might break into tears at any moment. It's just there's like a nakedness to his performances that I really appreciate.

I think he's still to this day an underrated actor.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, and I think he's someone who really knows what he's good at. I think about the movie Affleck and Damon wrote a few years ago, The Last Duel. So they wrote that movie together.

It's a movie with two lead roles. Damon got one of the lead roles. It seems pretty obvious that if Affleck had wanted the other lead role, he would have gotten it.

It's not like anyone would have told him no, but instead, he cast himself in a sort of supporting comedic role and gave Adam Driver play the other lead.

[Brad]
Yeah, I mean, and that's a real talent to have self-awareness and understand what you are good at as an actor. And I'm curious if him being a director kind of plays into that, that he understands what he's looking for from behind the camera and knows what he can or can't do in front of the camera.

[Bob]
Yeah, there's a there's an unselfishness to him as an actor and as a director. I think that's probably what makes him such a good director is he for being such a big movie star. I've never felt, you know, I'm trying to think of performances of his where it feels like he's he's playing too broad or he's chewing up scenery or he's trying to upstage somebody who's higher up on the call sheet than he is.

He's you know, he is a recognizable person, but I just like Matt Damon. I think we've talked about this multiple times this season, Brad. Like, I've never felt like Damon has been considered as a tier of an actor as he is because he's such an unselfish actor.

It really is the same thing with Affleck.

[Brad]
I personally, I would put Damon in a higher category than Affleck, though. I don't know what it is about Affleck. I've just always had that like preconceived notion that he's not actually a great actor and it's not fair because I like we've I've seen him in enough movies now to go.

Oh, no, like Affleck's a really good actor. There's just something in me that goes like he like he's kind of a Brad Pitt, but he's not quite as good looking or as good at acting and I just I don't know if he's just kind of like a B-list Brad Pitt, which, you know, still might be an A-list actor, but there's something in me that always rejects the idea of Ben Affleck being like the leading guy.

[Bob]
Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of Backhanded Compliment Hour with Brad G. Good lord, man.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, I mostly agree. I definitely agree that Matt Damon would be in a higher level. I mean, you know, again, for the ringer piece I was working on recently, I just rewatched The Talented Mr. Ripley last week. And Matt Damon is just incredible in that movie and to a degree that I think very few actors could have pulled that off. The comp that would come to mind for me with Ben Affleck would be like a Kevin Costner type. Like he's a great leading man.

He doesn't have a lot of range, but when you put him in the thing that he's good at, there aren't many people you'd rather have.

[Bob]
Yeah, I think that's actually a great comparison. And I think, you know, Costner's biggest downfall as a filmmaker is like he has a ton of ambition. And I think that sometimes his movies can't pay that off.

And what makes Affleck such a great filmmaker is how economical he is. Like both in terms of the size of films that he makes, but also like literally budgetarily he can work on a 15, 20, 40 million dollar budget in a way that somebody like a Costner isn't working behind the camera.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, Costner is definitely a victim to his own hubris in a way that Affleck for the most part hasn't been.

[Brad]
Yeah. All I know is Robin Hood is one of the greatest movies ever made.

[Daniel Joyaux]
It is so much, dude. I love it. But you can totally imagine if that movie were made in 2011 instead of 1991, it would have starred Affleck.

[Bob]
It did. You're not wrong. The only thing disproving that theory is that we did get a Robin Hood movie in like 2011 and it started Russell Crowe.

[Daniel Joyaux]
That's only because Ridley Scott directed it. Ridley Scott. Yeah, inseparable.

[Bob]
And it was right at the beginning of Thick Crowe to our favorite era of Crowe. I freaking love it, dude. Thick Crowe was incredible.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, putting on those Zeus pounds for...

[Bob]
There you go.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Didn't he play Zeus in one of the Thor movies?

[Bob]
Yeah, in the Taika Waititi Thor.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah.

[Bob]
Rough times, man. All right, Daniel, before we go to break, I don't want to quite get off of this cast list yet. I'll throw to you, I'm sure that there was a performance or two that really stood out to you.

Who would you like to spotlight here?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Well, you didn't realize it when you said that, but you teed me up perfectly for another note I have.

[Bob]
Oh, okay.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Whenever you see lists or Twitter prompts of people saying, who are the best actors who have never been nominated for an Oscar, a name that comes up a lot in those type of prompts is John Goodman. And so my question is, should this have been John Goodman's Oscar?

[Bob]
I like that because it is a very Oscar-y supporting performance in that... And I don't mean that in like a, I am going into histrionics screaming for my Oscar clip. It's like the old guard honoring the guy who's paid his dues in a very kind of small, minimal, inoffensive role.

We see that a ton in the supporting categories. I mean, this would be his Jamie Lee Curtis win, right?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah. So I looked up to see who that supporting actor race was. So Goodman was not even nominated.

The five nominees that were out that year were Alan Arkin for Argo, Robert De Niro for Silver Linings Playbook, Philip Seymour Hoffman for The Master, Tommy Lee Jones for Lincoln. And then anyone remember who the winner was? Not one of the waltz.

Yep.

[Bob]
There you go. Christoph Waltz for Django Unchained. Yeah.

So I will say this. That was one of my most pleasant surprises in the history of the Oscars was him winning for Django because Django is my favorite Tarantino movie. And I was shocked that they didn't nominate Leo and they did nominate Christoph Waltz because he was such a more heartfelt character with depth to him.

I thought it was a better performance than the Inglourious Bastards performance, even though that is the more memorable one. So for him to win, I was like, hell yeah. So if you're coming into my podcast today trying to convince me that this was the John Goodman year, I'm going to stand in your way on this one, man.

I think a nomination may have been warranted. Get De Niro out of there. I can't even remember De Niro in Silver Linings Playbook.

I hated that movie. I was going to say, I did not remember him being in that movie.

[Daniel Joyaux]
He's Bradley Cooper's dad, I think, right?

[Brad]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And him and his brother are always giving Cooper crap and watching The Eagles.

[Bob]
Yeah. I do think it's interesting that Arkin gets nominated again here after. So he wins Best Supporting Actor for Little Miss Sunshine back in the ceremony, I think, was held in 2007.

He beat Eddie Murphy, who had been sweeping the awards season for the movie Dreamgirls. And so I think everyone had kind of been like, all right, well, that was a shocker. And now he's got his Oscar and we can kind of put him out to pasture.

And so for him to get another nomination here, I do find interesting. I'm with you, Daniel, in that if I was going to nominate somebody in the supporting category, it probably would have been Goodman here.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Well, and I almost, I mean, I like Arkin in the film. I like Goodman a lot of the film. I also love Cranston in the film.

I mean, I think you could make an easy argument that any one of those three should have been nominated. I mean, probably my favorite single line in the film comes from Bryan Cranston when, you know, in the climax of the movie, when they're trying to get the tickets secured for everyone to escape Tehran and they need to call the White House chief of staff. But and Bryan Cranston yells, you know, to get him on the phone.

And someone says, how do we find him? And Bryan Cranston screams back, we're a fucking spy agency.

[Bob]
What a great line. Brad, how about you? If you had to nominate somebody from this movie, who would it have been?

[Brad]
I mean, just based on his one line, I think it's Alan Arkin because, you know, try the Ayatollah. Why don't you try the WGA? What a great line.

Am I right, Daniel?

[Daniel Joyaux]
That is a good one.

[Bob]
I do love the whole exchange that leads to the first instance of Argo Fuck Yourself, where, you know, they're at the dinner party and the guy's like, so what is the Argo? And he's like, you know, it's the thing. It's the ship.

It goes places. He's like, oh, so it's the big bada boom. So it's the Argonaut.

He goes, no. Then he goes, wait, so what is it?

[Brad]
So good, man. I will say in that moment, it was it might be my favorite line from the movie, the way Arkin delivers it every time that they said it to each other after that felt kind of like the joke that like friends don't let go, but they probably should let go. Like every single time they say it, I'm kind of like, OK, OK, we got it.

[Daniel Joyaux]
It was the first time doing the Borat voice in 2009.

[Brad]
Yes.

[Bob]
You know what, Brad? I've actually thought a lot about this because I am a huge nerd. And for a long time, the American Film Institute was doing these lists every year.

It started with the 100 best movies of all time. And then they were doing like the 100 best romances and the 100 best comedies. And they did one that was the best quotes of all time.

And I think that Argo Fuck Yourself, it probably wouldn't have been in that because it was aired on CBS. But like it, it had the potential to be like an all timer line that dudes quoted each other. And you're right.

They introduce it. And then within three minutes, you have John Goodman repeating it on the phone. And then they bring it back up another like 15 minutes after that.

And I feel like if you had it once in the first instance and then like maybe at the very end of the movie as like a callback when, you know, Ben Affleck calls to say thank you and he goes, hey, Argo Fuck Yourself. Like that would have been a great line at the end. And they just tried to they tried to make Fetch happen.

And Fetch is just not going to happen in this movie.

[Brad]
Dude, that way to put it. That is the perfect way to put it.

[Bob]
Yeah. All right. Well, on that note, guys, what do you say we take a break here, Brad?

You and I have to drink some whiskey. We'll come back. We'll keep talking about Argo.

We'll keep dropping F-bombs. What do you say? Dude, I am so ready.

Let's do it. All right. So today we are checking out rare character, the exceptional series, Kentucky straight malt whiskey.

Now, Brad, this might actually be the first rare character offering we've had on this podcast. They're a really well-known brand when it comes to like bourbon or whiskey connoisseurs because they source very well-aged barrels and sell them as like a premium product. So like you're not going to see anything from them.

That's just like a, you know, a two year bourbon. Like they really dive into the good stuff. And I think honestly, Brad, like we've had a couple of them.

We went to a, we kind of snuck into a really fancy dinner a couple years ago at the Kentucky bourbon festival, and they pulled out like a 24 year something or other.

[Brad]
Oh, I do remember. Yeah, dude. Their stuff is very good.

Yeah. Very, very good. That's that's wild, man.

Yeah. There's still a part of me that like, you know, we've been around for six, seven years now in the world of whiskey. I still don't understand, like, why does company A have a 20 plus year bottle of whiskey and sell it to company B for them to sell it for a poop load of money?

Yeah, I don't know. Why doesn't company A just sell the 20 plus year aged whiskey?

[Bob]
It's all about scale, man. When it comes to businesses like that, it's like if we can't sell it at scale, we don't want to worry about it. So here, just take this barrel.

But listen, however, it got to us today. We're very grateful for it. So like I said, this is an 11 year age stated Kentucky straight malt whiskey.

We I don't know if we've ever had a Kentucky malt whiskey before. The mash bill on this is 65% malt, 35% corn. It is cask strength, and I'm reading notes directly off of rare characters website here.

It says this is an incredibly uncommon mash bill. Very hard to find Kentucky malt of this age with this mash bill on the market. It is not a single malt.

It's a straight malt distilled using column stills and aged in new barrels, just like a bourbon or a rye. I'm pretty excited. This sounds like a very unique type of whiskey, Brad.

[Brad]
Yeah, 100%. I, you know, when once you've seen enough movies, you kind of crave unique movies. And once you've drank enough whiskeys, you start to get a hankering for unique experiences.

[Bob]
I am very intrigued here, Bob. All right, well, let's not beat around the bush here anymore, man. I'm going to dive right in.

And when I stick my nose in this glass again, I'm tasting live. Brad has tried it already. I think the Kentucky in the Kentucky straight malt is standing out to me like this smells like a really bright, fruity bourbon on the nose to me, or maybe even like a like a 51 49 rye to me.

I really like the nose here, Brad.

[Brad]
The nose is unique. I am getting very little bourbon on it to me. This is like lemon grass and like a shortbread cookie.

Hmm. Like, what's the what's the little bags of cookies? Like Lorna Dunes, whatever they're called.

[Bob]
Oh, you're talking like the chess men cookies. Yes.

[Brad]
Yeah.

[Bob]
Yeah.

[Brad]
That is what this reminds me of. It's unique and interesting. I don't know if I'm vibing with it a ton, but it it has quality to it.

You can tell it's well made. I'm going to give it a seven out of ten.

[Bob]
Oh, see, I like this a lot more, Brad. This is this is where I feel like America can do malt whiskey in really interesting ways. So like there is, you know, American single malt, obviously, but this is, you know, the Mash Bill is 65 35.

So it's got some of that corn character to it as well. I will say that it smells just a little bit young still, even though it's 11 years old. I think it's that corn influence here, but I'm really digging it.

It's bringing out some sweet notes that you don't usually get with malt whiskey. I'm going to give it an eight out of ten, and I'm really looking forward to giving this a sip.

[Brad]
Man, as I got into the palate here, it just it's just not quite working for me, Bob. I can tell that it is well made, but for me, it's like a really strong lemon zest. It has a bit of a banana vibe.

There's a little bit of an olive oil taste to it. Like it is very unique and interesting. I just don't know if I'm getting enough like whiskey notes for me to go.

Yeah, this is a good whiskey. This just tastes very strange to me. And once again, like it's unique and interesting.

I kind of like it, but I'm very confused by it, and I'm going to give it a seven out of ten again.

[Bob]
Wow. Yeah. See, I like this a lot more.

I will say that, like, I'm kind of with you in that it tastes like I'm drinking a fun experiment rather than something that is like a final product. And I don't mean that in a negative way. Like, I think they've actually done a couple.

[Brad]
I do. I mean it in a negative way.

[Bob]
I think they've actually done a couple different iterations of this. And so, like, I think it's still not a work in progress, but like an ongoing thing. And when I drink this, I do get some of those kind of like olive oil notes.

There's definitely some. It tips close to bitterness on the back of the palate because of that like American single malt kind of taste. However, I think it's fun.

Like, I think it's a really fun matchup. And, you know, you and I are tepid to negative on the mellow corn, but it kind of feels like if you were playing around with mellow corn and American single malt and trying to find the right balance of those two things. I actually really like this a lot, Brad.

I'm not super high on it, but I'm going to be at a seven and a half.

[Brad]
Yeah. And for me, it kind of gets a little worse on the finish. Like this is a really weird, interesting whiskey that I once again, I want to keep coming back to this.

It is a well-made whiskey like that, like you can tell that there's quality here. I just don't like the direction that they went with it. For me, the finish is very short.

It's very grassy, and it's got a nice like bready texture to it and taste, but there's not really any flavors that linger with me. Like even the lemon, which is a pretty distinct flavor, has kind of dissipated at this point. I'm going to drop down to a six and a half on the finish.

[Bob]
Oh, yeah. See, I like this a lot better than you, man. I'm going to stick at an eight on the finish.

I think that if you are a fan of malt whiskey, this almost has like an Isla Scotch vibe in terms of the smokiness that it leaves behind. It doesn't have a peat flavor, but it's a little bit more of a bold, bitter, smoky flavor that it leaves behind on the palate. I like the finish a lot.

It's super long lasting, you know, on their website, they have a tasting note here. That's a spearmint, and I couldn't quite pinpoint it until I read that. I do think there's a mintiness to this that I really, really like.

So I'm going to be at an eight on the finish. I think I'm going to be at a 7.5 overall on the balance. This is a well above average whiskey.

I do kind of hate that this is the one we started with, Brad, because you and I, as we said, we've tried rare character products outside of the podcast before and really liked them. This feels a little bit more experimental to me, and I don't think is necessarily representative of like their whole portfolio of products. I'm looking at all the samples that our friend Zach Johnston gave us to try, and I see a couple more rare characters on the shelf here.

So I think that as we kind of explore more of their bourbons, we might get a sense for what they typically go for in these barrels. But this Kentucky Straight Malt is definitely like a fun side project. It's kind of what it feels like to me.

[Brad]
Yeah, it's exceptionally different, to say the least. I'm going to give it a 6 out of 10 on balance. Like, I can see what they're going for.

It's not working for me. I think the problem is when we get into value. Bob, this is a luxury whiskey.

Everything that I could find was a minimum of $200, if not quite more than that. This is a 2.5 out of 10, Bob. Like, I am not buying this if I'm looking to buy a luxury bottle.

[Bob]
Yeah, again, I think this is the kind of whiskey that you pull out at a fancy dinner at the Kentucky Bourbon Festival. This is like, hey guys, check out this barrel that we bought that is super unique and interesting. I don't know that this is something that I would recommend the average consumer go out and buy, but if you're in the business of buying luxury bottles, I don't think this is necessarily a terrible value.

I'm going to give it a 5 out of 10, Brad, because again, it is a single barrel. So like, there's only one of these floating around. And I think that if you want to have a bottle of the one barrel, this is kind of what the asking price is going to be.

So that brings my final score out to a 36 out of 50. Brad, where are you falling on this one?

[Brad]
I'm at a 29 out of 50, Bob.

[Bob]
Oh, wow, dude.

[Brad]
Yeah. And the thing is, I don't think that this is as bad as my score would suggest. Like, it just did not vibe for me at all.

Yeah, Bob, this is wild. We are seven points apart, which is talk about a rare experience. We are not often more than like four or five points apart.

[Bob]
No, I think on the season, our average is like two points apart, maybe. So this is, we have diverged pretty heavily on this one. Man, I do kind of wish that this was a little bit wider of a release so that we could gauge people's opinions.

Like, if you've tried something like this, what do you think about it? But I mean, maybe I should just text our friend Zach, because I think he's the only other person I know that's tried this one, man. Okay, Brad, despite not liking this particular release, you said multiple times that you could tell while drinking it that it was a well-made product.

So if this was your only exposure to rare character, like, what are the impressions you're left with as a brand?

[Brad]
Meh. Like, to be completely frank, man, this is an experiment gone wrong. Wow.

It's way too out there, way too unique. And to be frank, I have had tons of single malts, blended malts, whatever, and it's all from Scotland or Japan or India, and it's freaking delicious. And this is just a swing and a miss.

[Bob]
I do think that despite not liking it, we can both acknowledge there was definitely care and attention put into the picking of this barrel. It seems intentional, and I really like that they're willing to release this under their own banner as like, this is a rare character product. This is not like we didn't create some side brand for the experimental stuff.

We're going to go ahead and stake our claim on being an experimental brand. So, folks, that's rare character, exceptional series, 11-year Kentucky malt whiskey. Brad, what do you say we get back into talking about Argo?

[Brad]
That's the thing, man. If they called it the experimental series, I probably would have given it a higher score. But it's called the exceptional series.

And I'm like, listen, man, this whiskey isn't exceptional. It's experimental. And I am excited to talk about Argo.

Let's get to it, man. All right, everybody. That was rare character, the exceptional series, 11-year whiskey that I thought was unimpressive.

Bob liked it a decent amount. Yeah, it was good. You'll probably just have to check it out for yourself.

Make your own decisions.

[Bob]
That's what you come to us for, is for us to tell you to make your own decisions, you know? Brad, there is no decision to be made about how well I am doing this season at our next segment, which we call Two Facts and a Falsehood. Two Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie.

Now, I am coming off a win last week when it comes to Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Remember, when we have a guest on the show, if I seek that guest's help and we are correct, I get one victory. But if we are wrong, I get two losses because it is doubly embarrassing for the both of us.

Daniel, I will be calling on you today because it's no fun when I don't include the guest in this. So don't screw me over, I guess, is what I'm saying here.

[Brad]
Bob, I will say, like, you say that every time we have a guest. You do know that you have a choice, right? I don't have it.

Brad, come on, man.

[Bob]
What kind of a host would I be to not even remotely include our guest? One who cares about winning, Bob. One who cares about the integrity of the game.

That's right, Daniel.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Bob, I'll warn you that my Blu-ray of Argo has seven different documentaries on the special features, and I only managed to watch three of the seven before we recorded.

[Bob]
You suck, dude. Come on. This is a five documentary minimum entry requirement, dude.

Come on.

[Brad]
All right, Brad, hit me with your two facts and a falsehood. Fact number one, permission was given by four of the six rescued hostages to use their name in any rights to the story, except for one of the married couples. Mark and Cora Lijek in the film were made up to replace Matt and Carolyn Linden.

Hmm. Fact number two, for the opening scene, the director of photography gave eight millimeter cameras out to certain people in the crowd to make the opening scene have what would seem like actual footage from the riot. Fact number three, John Goodman walks with a limp throughout the movie because he had just had knee surgery.

But after the movie came out, one of John Chambers' friends came up to him and complimented him on his performance, particularly replicating Chambers' limp, which Goodman was completely unaware of.

[Bob]
All right, Daniel, I'm going to say number two sounds very true to me. It could be false, but Brad doesn't know anything about eight millimeter film. So I'm going to go ahead and just say number two is a truth for now, based on my extreme prejudice towards Brad and what he knows.

That is so rude, Bob. Super rude. It might come back to bite me.

Number three sounds like it could be a Brad invention to me. So I'm leaning. It's got to be one or three.

I'm wondering where you're leaning with this one.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I don't know which one isn't true, but I know which one of those is true. So I guess by default, I know. One of the documentaries I watched about an hour ago, I can tell you that Liecheck was the real name of one of the couple.

So that one's a lie.

[Bob]
All right, there it is. The end. Daniel, you got to tease it out a little bit.

We got to bring some suspense into this. That one's a lie. Period.

Point blank. Full stop. Brad, we are locking in number one as the falsehood.

I'm not even mad.

[Brad]
If we bring somebody on who watched three documentaries.

[Bob]
Hey, only three of the seven.

[Bob]
You picked the right three, it sounds like. Yeah. All right, so I guess we're claiming our one victory.

Thank you, Blu-ray extras. This episode is sponsored by Blu-ray extras. The real heroes.

I was going to say, I freaking miss extras. That's what we're missing.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Physical media is always the real hero. Yes.

[Brad]
It really is, man.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I know this is a podcast and not a video, but for anyone that doesn't know, Bob is recording in front of a shelf of physical media. Brad is recording in front of a shelf that has exactly three Blu-rays on it.

[Brad]
Four. Four.

[Bob]
Thank you very much.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Oh, four. I'm sorry.

[Bob]
Well, and in that spirit, I'm also burning this onto physical CDs that you can send away for. I'll mail you a CD of this episode, folks. Send me five dollars.

All right, guys, let's get back into talking about the movie a little bit. Daniel has informed us that we have hit every one of his major points on the movie in our first half. So Brad, kudos to us.

That's a major accomplishment for us. We are incredible.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I guess there is one other thing that I wanted to say that I didn't have written down, but I wanted to make a point of it is we've talked a lot about the script and the editing for the film, but we haven't mentioned the names of the people who did those things. So I just think we should say the screenplay was written by Chris Terrio. It was adapted from an article in Wired magazine, as well as elements of Tony Mendez, the character who Ben Affleck played of his memoir and the editor, William Goldenberg.

Both of them won an Oscar for the movie. I should point out that William Goldenberg, as I'm looking at his page on Letterbox, was also the editor for most of the recent Michael Mann films. He edited Heat, The Insider, Miami Vice.

[Brad]
You are invited onto the show anytime.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Good job on you, William Goldenberg. And he also edited Zero Dark Thirty that same year. So that's a hell of a year he had.

[Bob]
Yeah, that's a great jumping off point. I want to talk about what an underrated great crop of movies 2012 gave us. So here's the best picture lineup from that year.

I'll read them in order. The winner being Argo and then Amour, Beasts of the Southern Wild, Django Unchained, Les Miserables, Life of Pi, Lincoln, Silver Linings Playbook, and Zero Dark Thirty. Now, I know that I think everybody has at least one movie in that list that they really don't like.

Like, there's some really divisive movies in that list. But in terms of capturing just a really large swath of the movie going public, this is one of the better years that I can think of in the last maybe 20 years, Brad. It's a really great crop of films.

[Brad]
I'm going to be honest, dude. It's a great crop of like eight out of ten films. I don't feel like any of these are like a lock to beat other years of best picture winners.

You know what I mean? There's years where you're like, oh, yeah, this isn't just a best picture winner. It could be like a best picture of the decade winner or in the running.

I don't see any of these movies on that level.

[Bob]
Well, thanks for crapping all over my segment of the podcast here, man. Dude, I love doing that. Backhanded compliment corner strikes again.

It is so satisfying. Well, let's let's seek the advice of our Oscar expert here. I don't know, Daniel, what's your thought on this crop here?

[Daniel Joyaux]
I'll probably lean more towards Brad in this case. I think it's a good best picture slate. I think Brad has a great point that none of these seem like best of the decade movies.

I mean, for me, the top three films in that lineup in some order would be Argo, Zero Dark 30 and Lincoln, all of which I think are great. I don't know that I'd say any of them are in the best of that decade conversation. I mean, for me, Argo might be just, but I love it irrationally.

[Bob]
Yeah, I think this might have just been like one of those years for me too. I was, you know, I would have been turning 22. I saw a ton of movies this year.

I had a great time at the theater. So maybe it's just like sticking in my memory more, but still had hope in your bones. Yeah, dude, you're telling me even like going down some of the other, you know, nominations in other categories.

You have Skyfall this year, Wreck-It Ralph. You've got The Master from Paul Thomas Anderson. Like I think Flight with Denzel Washington, great movie.

I think that there's definitely some really, really good movies in this crop. And partially it's because this feels like, you know, anytime I look back on pre-pandemic Hollywood now, it's like, oh man, this is a crop of movies that actually feel like movies too. They weren't movies that were so small that they get this tiny awards rollout now.

Like these were big Hollywood movies that were still making a dent in the consciousness of public and people remember seeing 13 years later. And this feels like one of the last times we had that.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah. And what I'll say about this lineup is this is the fourth year since the Oscars expanded the Best Picture lineup beyond five films. And this is one of those years where you look at the lineup and you think to yourself, the expansion worked.

It did what it was intended to do. There's a foreign language film in here in Amour. There's a tiny Sundance film in here in Beasts of the Southern Wild.

There's a musical. There are several huge box office hits. It's really a lineup that stretches out how many kinds of movies can be nominated.

[Brad]
Yeah, for sure. Now, Daniel, I heard you use one of my favorite words to hear a guest utter. You use the word irrational.

What? Like, I really want to hear what is it about Argo that makes you irrationally just feel glued to the TV if it came on a Sunday afternoon?

[Daniel Joyaux]
More than anything, it's probably what you said at the end of the episode, the tension. It's just such a perfectly edited film and such a perfectly designed and structured screenplay. And it's a story where the stakes make that tension feel worth it.

[Brad]
Yeah, I think for me, the making the stakes worth it is the little scenes that you have with the six, if we can call them that, like the actors there, none of them, as far as I know, are like even like B list actors. They're all somewhat nobody's. But they they all give the.

The appearance of people who have truly been struggling for 70 plus 80 plus days under extraordinarily difficult situations, and I think that their ability to connect with one another the moment when the one woman says to her husband like, I'm terrified. It's such a heartwarming, heart rending moment that connects you with that group of people that I think they really just do an excellent job of setting the stage where we really do care about what's happening on screen.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Just as I've been sitting here listening to you guys for the last few minutes and thinking about that question, I think something that occurs to me that I don't know that I ever would have thought of this before. And so, Brad, thank you for prompting this thought out of me. I think one of the things I love so much about Argo is it's a movie about the power of outside the box thinking, you know, you've got six, a true story of six hostages, well, not hostages, but six people stranded in in Iran with people looking for them and, you know, no way to get them out.

And the idea that someone from the CIA comes up with is to make a fake science fiction movie. It's wacky. It's bonkers.

I mean, you know, it's Moneyball came out the year before Argo and one of the reasons Moneyball is a great film for a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons it's such an enduring film that you can always go back to is it reminds you of just like how great it is for new ideas that other people dismiss to be proven right. And that's also what Argo is.

I mean, you know, there's the initial scene where they talk about all the different ideas they have to get these six out. You know, one idea is to pose them as teachers who randomly went to Iran. And one idea is to have them ride bikes 300 miles from Tehran to the Turkish border.

And, you know, the idea that ends up working is the idea that probably on initial assessment seems like the wildest and stupidest one, but it was also the best idea.

[Bob]
This is the best bad idea we've got. Another great line.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I use that quote in real life a lot. And I think it is a great quote. There are cases in life where the only choices are all bad, but there is still the best bad one.

[Bob]
Yep. 100%. It's like inviting you onto our podcast.

You know, it's like of all the people you could find.

[Brad]
It makes me want to ask, like, if you had to draft Kyrie or James Harden, you have to do it. Which one is the best bad plan?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Daniel James Harden, because I at least have no philosophical issues with who he is.

[Bob]
I was going to I was going to ask us to stay on the Oscars thing just for a minute, because the only reason well, one of the few reasons this has made it onto our list for this season, Brad, is that it did win the Oscar for Best Picture. It did make a lot of money, too. I don't know if it cleared 100 million, but it had to have been close.

But let's just assume for now that it's the Best Picture thing. This wins Best Picture, I wouldn't call it in a controversial way, but I think it wins Best Picture in a way that requires some serious award season context. Daniel, you're probably better equipped to give a quick summation of award season and what led to this movie winning Best Picture.

[Daniel Joyaux]
So I can definitely speak to that, although I will probably end up disagreeing with you. I think what you're referring to is that Ben Affleck was infamously snubbed of a Best Director nomination. And there is a lot of speculation that outrage for him not receiving a Best Director nomination led to the film winning Best Picture.

I don't agree with that. Before the Oscar nominations that year, before anyone knew Affleck wasn't going to get nominated, I already thought Argo was going to win Best Picture. And I mean, that doesn't make me right.

Maybe it wouldn't have won and maybe Affleck not getting nominated really is the reason that it won. But I already believed it was going to be our Best Picture winner. Like with this year, there's a perception that the controversies Amelia Perez suffered with all of Carlos Sofia Gascon's tweets.

Some people believe that's the reason it didn't win Best Picture. I was on the podcast with you the day the Oscar nominations came out. It wasn't even one of the films that I thought had a chance to win Best Picture.

[Brad]
$136 million.

[Bob]
Oh, there you go. All right. So the Best Picture thing doesn't even matter.

It's on our list because it made so much freaking money, Brad. That's what we're going with now. Raking in the cash.

Daniel, I do appreciate that context, though, because I believe Affleck wins the DGA award this year. I think the movie wins at the Golden Globe. So it had a ton of momentum.

It was a huge shocker to see him not get the director nomination. And I do think that there was a fair amount of outrage over that, whether that actually led to it winning Best Picture or not. There's really no way we can measure that.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, it's an unprovable point either way. But like another example is Greta Gerwig didn't get nominated for Best Director last year for Barbie, which caused a lot of outrage. But that didn't catapult Barbie to Best Picture.

It wasn't going to win either way.

[Bob]
Yeah, 100%. All right, guys. I think this is a good place for us to move to our last segment of the day, which we call Let's Make It a Double.

[MUSIC]
We're near the end of the episode. So thanks for listening to the Film and Whiskey Show. Let's pair another film with this one, even if it's a struggle.

It's the final segment of the day.

[Bob]
Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is presented by Blackwood Distilling Company. It's the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature.

Uh, Brad, would you like to go first or would you like to offer it to Daniel?

[Brad]
Uh, yeah, I'll jump in. Unless, Daniel, you're just burning to get that double feature out there. I think for my Let's Make It a Double, there is a movie that I'm going to be honest, I have not seen probably since I was a teenager.

So like 15 to 20 years ago. I don't remember it like wildly well. I remember liking it a lot and feeling like it was a very tense movie that also falls into the vein of a cultural revolution paired with one man trying to do a good thing.

I'm going to pair this with Hotel Rwanda.

[Bob]
Oh, good movie.

[Brad]
Oh, yeah, man.

[Bob]
I've only seen that movie one time. Good movie, though. Great Don Cheadle performance.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I think I've only seen it once when it came out.

[Brad]
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say, I probably didn't see in 2004. It was probably like 2008 or nine when I saw it.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah, I didn't see it in theaters. I think that's one I got as a new release, like the week it came out on DVD.

[Bob]
All right, Daniel, how about you? What's your, uh, what's your pick here?

[Daniel Joyaux]
It might be a low hanging fruit kind of answer, but I'll say Zero Dark Thirty for a few reasons. One, it came out the same year. They both co-star Kyle Chandler.

They were both edited by William Goldenberg. And they, you know, they were both nominated for Best Picture that year. William Goldenberg was actually double nominated.

He scored two of the five editing nominations that year. But, you know, they offer two differing looks at the CIA, two differing realities of American foreign policy. And so I think they're really interesting to compare to one another.

And I also just re-watched Zero Dark Thirty a few weeks ago. I think it holds up as a fantastic movie. Uh, certainly a more problematic one than Argo.

Um, but you could, you could do a lot worse with one to watch.

[Brad]
Daniel, all I have to say is don't get caught holding the leash.

[Bob]
Yeah, that was, that was Brad's major takeaway from that film when we reviewed it last season, which is a super concerning thing for you to remember from that film. But, you know, we'll, we'll move past that.

[Brad]
It's a pretty memorable, uh, set of scenes, like culminating in that line.

[Bob]
So a hundred percent, man. All right. Guys, I think, you know, as per usual with me, I think there's a ton of directions you could go here.

I just re-watched Ocean's Eleven last week. And like, there's a great... And that's your make, let's make it a double.

No, I think there's a great, like, let's get the team together sequence in this movie that reminds me so much of when they're recruiting the members. I also think that Alan Arkin's character reminds me a ton of, like, the way Elliot Gould plays his character in Ocean's Eleven. So you could go that route.

I think there's a very obvious, uh, the producers play that you can make here with them combing through scripts of a thing that they're going to produce that's not real or not designed to succeed. Uh, but for me, you know, Daniel, you said something earlier on about...

[Brad]
Hey, we want to make this film springtime for Hitler in Iran. Can you, can you check that off for us?

[Daniel Joyaux]
I mean, with, with the current trajectory of society, I'm worried springtime for Hitler actually would be a hit right now.

[Bob]
Oh my gosh, man. Depending on who you got to play Hitler, I think that could lead to some really concerning things. Daniel, you said something earlier in the episode about how the different locations of this film are filmed in entirely different ways.

Like, still a very cohesive movie, but it reminded me of, uh, Steven Soderbergh's movie Traffic. And I think that that actually might be my let's make it a double today. It's a movie that I don't think I've ever talked about on this podcast, a really good movie about, you know, the war on drugs.

So you've got your blue hued scenes in America. You've got your golden tinted scenes in Mexico, a really, really good movie. And I think a great pairing for what you're talking about here with Argo.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yep. Good movie.

[Bob]
All right. So there's our, let's make it a doubles. Uh, I think Brad might actually end up changing his to the producers after we just talked about that.

You seem to get a kick out of that one.

[Daniel Joyaux]
My backup choice would have been Moneyball just for the outside the box thinking.

[Brad]
Yeah, that's, that, that would be an interesting, an interesting night. What order do you watch those in Daniel? I don't know.

[Daniel Joyaux]
It depends whether you'd rather, what would you rather do first save the Oakland A's or save, save six lives?

[Brad]
I mean, if it was presented chronologically, probably the Oakland A's.

[Bob]
All right, guys, those are our picks for let's make it a double. No matter what you choose to pair this movie up with, you can always make it a double with Blackwood Distilling Company. Guys, it's time for us to give final scores on Argo.

I'm going to go first here, Brad. I think that this is an extremely well-made movie and the whole movie. I just found myself thinking like it's so refreshing when you watch a movie where everybody involved in the movie is extremely competent.

And I think that for me, the movie loses a little bit at the end when they try to manufacture the like we're chasing the plane down the runway about to shoot at it. I know that that became very famously like, oh, they added that whatever. I actually just think from a, from a filmmaking standpoint, you've gotten all the suspense you need getting them on that plane.

We don't need like another obstacle at that point. So I'm actually coming out to an eight out of 10 on this movie. I think it is just an incredibly well-made, super crowd-pleasing movie.

I don't know if I like if I would look at it and think best picture winner. Obviously, with the crop of movies that we're talking about today, it makes sense why it won. But for me, Brad, it's an eight out of 10.

[Brad]
Bob, I actually come out to a pretty similar place for me. It's the moment when the phone is ringing in the fake studio and Arkin and Goodman are standing and the PA guy is like, hold up, hold up. We're filming here.

And you can tell that the actor knows that his role is to be a jerk who's going to stop six people's lives from being saved the way he's treating them. And it just went a little too far at the end. It got a little bit hammy.

Overall, I think this is an incredibly fun movie that kind of keeps you on the edge of your seat. The tension builds and builds. It just doesn't quite stick the landing perfectly.

I'm actually at the exact same spot as you, Bob. I'm at an eight out of 10. All right, Daniel, it's to you, man.

[Daniel Joyaux]
I feel like this is an echo of when we recorded our last Mohegan's episode and you guys went first and you were just talking about the ways that disappointed you. Then I was like, 10 masterpiece. I'm going to do the same thing again right now.

[Bob]
Good for you, man. I like that. I'd rather you do that than be like, yeah, I'm with you.

It's an eight. If you're going to pick an eight, don't come on the podcast. You know what I mean?

You got to pick a movie that you think is a 10. I'm super glad that you love this movie so much. And Brad, it's one of those films where because it's so well made, even if it doesn't work as a 10 for me, I can absolutely see why this movie would work as a 10 for somebody.

It makes total sense. Yeah, totally.

[Daniel Joyaux]
So back to the original question, is this in the 21st century canon? Do you guys have a rule of what numeric score you need to give it for it to be like, do only movies that you give nines or 10s get in the canon or where does this one fall for you?

[Bob]
That's a good question. We haven't actually put that sort of rule on it. I think for me, I would say no, but that's more just because I think this is a great Hollywood movie that doesn't quite transcend that the way that it might for you, Daniel.

But I will also say, Brad has been getting on me because I keep trying to put caveats on things I think should go in, like the movie Creed. I was like, oh, that should probably go in because there's just not a lot of good sports movies. And he's like, no, no.

Is it just as a movie? Is it in or is it out? So we've been debating back and forth.

What are the actual criteria here?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah. I mean, I'm with you in the sense of like, I need to know a little bit more. I would not put Argo in the film school canon.

If you were teaching an intro to film class that could only show movies from the last 20 years and you had to pick 20 movies from the last 20 years to show your students over the course of semester, Argo would not be one of the ones you'd consider showing. But if the bar is just the Hollywood canon, then absolutely.

[Brad]
Brad, how about you? Where are you falling on this one? My bar is my personal opinion, and it is not going to reach that high, high standard.

[Bob]
I'm looking back through our list of movies on the season, and I can't quite put my finger on which one it reminds me of the most, but I think this is like a sneaky good movie where if you wanted to show it in a film school, people would probably scoff at it. Then you start breaking down. I keep using this word competence, but like the way that people just do their jobs well in the making of this movie is super impressive.

You know, I look back. I guess you could compare this to like a Ford v. Ferrari where it's like a dad movie, but that's not really what I'm seeing here.

[Brad]
Honestly, Bob, as soon as you try to compare it to something else this season, my brain immediately went to Ford v. Ferrari.

[Bob]
Yeah. For me, it's either going to be that or the other analog was like a skyfall where I think a lot of people have a ceiling in mind for what a James Bond movie can be. It's a genre exercise that I think is elevated by some of the people behind the camera with that movie, and I think there's kind of a similar thing here.

This is like a little genre movie that is elevated by people putting an intense amount of care into it.

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yeah. Into my film school comment, you know, I could totally imagine showing Argo in a screenwriting class, and if there were, I don't know if there are editing like pure just classes on editing in film school, but I could absolutely imagine showing it in an editing class.

[Brad]
Yeah. Now, I will say we can't get out of here today without me mentioning, Bob, what sparked my thought was you talked about everybody doing their jobs so incredibly well. The one guy who did a horrific job, the dude who announces to his like US military brothers, we need to give them an hour to burn all the documents immediately turns around and goes, hey, guys, I'm going to go out there and reason with them, and then immediately is like open the door.

[Brad]
Let me in. It's totally going to be okay. Just let them in.

They want to talk.

[Bob]
Dude, it was amazing how quickly my allegiance shifted from the innocent people inside the building to the instigators outside of the building. As soon as that guy was like, I'm going to go reason with them, and they'd like they pick him up and just immediately throw him on the ground. I was like, hell, yeah, get him like that.

You deserved it. All right. So here that's our final thought to leave you with here on Argo with two eights from Brad and myself and a ten from Daniel, but we'd like to know what you think.

Is this a modern masterpiece? Is it a ten out of ten? You can find us to tell us all about it on any of our social media platforms, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, or YouTube at Film Whiskey, or you can join the discord.

[Brad]
We have a server that is dedicated to talking all things film, whiskey, and really anything else you want to talk about. If you want to join the conversation, you can find a link at the end of every single one of our show notes.

[Bob]
I want to say thanks again to our guest, Daniel. Daniel, I know that you have recently made the pilgrimage away from one platform to another. So where can we find you now to learn more about all things Oscars and all things Argo?

[Daniel Joyaux]
Yes, you can find me on Blue Sky at Third Man Movies. Sorry, I'm not on Twitter anymore. I mean, my account's still there.

I suppose I'll check it every once in a while, but I'm trying to be off Twitter. And then you can also follow me on Letterboxd at first initial and last names. That's D-J-O-Y-A-U-X.

[Bob]
All right, Daniel. You've actually done a great job of foreshadowing our next week's pick, because we're going to be looking at the 2011 film Moneyball. Oh, there you go.

In anticipation of opening week for baseball. So come back and join us for that Brad Pitt classic next week. But until then, I'm Bob Book.

I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time.