April 1, 2025
Jojo Rabbit (2019) / Barrell Dovetail Gold Label Whiskey feat. Zach Johnston, Blackwood Distilling
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Bob and Brad are joined by returning guest Zach Johnston, master blender at Blackwood Distilling, for a conversation about Taika Waititi’s 2019 film Jojo Rabbit. This genre-bending satire explores the absurdity of hatred, nationalism, and innocence lost…all through the eyes of a 10-year-old boy and his imaginary friend: Adolf Hitler.
Then, the guys sip and savor one of the most premium releases to ever grace the podcast—Barrell Craft Spirits' Dovetail Gold Label. With an MSRP of $500 and proof that clocks in at 140.18, this high-octane bottle is finished in Rum, Port, and Dunn Vineyards Cabernet barrels and aged up to 25 years. Is it worth the splurge? You’ll want to hear their full review before deciding.
(0:00) Intro
(6:34) Brad Explains
(10:37) Themes and Performances
(42:51) Barrell Dovetail Gold Label review
(55:48) Two Facts and a Falsehood
(1:01:19) Final Analysis
(1:18:18) Let’s Make it a Double and Final Scores
Save on your bottle of Blackwood (use code FILMWHISKEY)
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Transcript
Brad
In 2019, director Taika Waititi and star Roman Davies gave the world a heart-wrenching comedy about the dangers of child indoctrination.Bob
In 2025, we try a whiskey that is clearly the top of the heap. The film is Jojo Rabbit.Bob
The whiskey is Barrell Dovetail Gold Label. And we'll review them both. This is The Film and Whiskey Podcast.Bob
Welcome to The Film and Whiskey Podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad Gee.
And this week, we are looking at the 2019 film Jojo Rabbit. Jojo Rabbit.Brad
Bob, this might be- Yeah, go ahead. You go ahead, Brad. Intro it, buddy.
This movie might be the last one that I've seen in theaters. Like, I know that I've been to a few movies since then. But this was like the last movie I saw in theaters before the pandemic.
And so it sticks out for me as a memorable movie-going experience. It was my birthday. We went out to eat.
We went to see Jojo Rabbit. It's an incredible movie. I cried a lot.
It's a meaningful experience for me.Bob
I love it when- I mean, you know me. I love it when movies have that kind of tie to just a really great day. Like, I remember all these things I did on this day.
Back in 2008, I remember me and my now-brother-in-law, Max, we went to go see The Dark Knight. And then after The Dark Knight, we had tickets to a baseball game. And then we just went and watched baseball.
And it was a perfect day. As long as I live, I'll never forget. We saw one of the best movies ever.
And then we went and watched baseball.Brad
What a day. Do you know what else I remember from Jojo Rabbit birthday? We were sitting at this sports bar eating lunch.
And it was the day after a Thursday night football game where Miles Garrett took his helmet off, or got it taken off, and, like, nearly clubbed Mason Rudolph to death. Yes, yeah. And literally, we were there for like an hour and a half.
They showed that clip a minimum of, like, 207 times. It was, like, they just showed it over and over and over again.Bob
And then I went and watched Jojo Rabbit. I was going to say, that's one of those things where, like, I don't know if it implies anything when you start, like, associating violent acts in one area with violent acts in this movie. So I don't know what Brad to say.
Let's segue away from that, though. And let's just say this. This is a film that you have been really excited to talk about for a very long time.
You've mentioned the movie Jojo Rabbit quite a bit. There was a meme that went around a long time ago on Twitter. And, like, the premise was, guy who's only ever seen the movie The Boss Baby.
And then his quote was, like, this movie's given real Boss Baby vibes. That's kind of how I feel about Jojo Rabbit and you. Like, every movie we watch, you're like, oh, you know what?
Giving me some Jojo Rabbit vibes here.Brad
I don't know what you're talking about, Bob. I've never mentioned this movie before. It's not one of my top movies of the last 10 years.
There's no chance that I've ever told you about it.Bob
No, and there's no chance that I'm going to be the low man here today either, Brad, as seems to be my pattern this season. But in order to mitigate what I'm about to do to this movie, Brad, we have brought in a third person. We've brought in a guest.
It's one of our very favorite guests. And if I'm being honest, one of our very best friends in the world of whiskey. It's our friend Zach Johnston.
Zach, how are you, man? Doing well.Zachary Johnston
I'm enjoying listening to you guys chatter. Have a good time. I'm looking forward to talking about Jojo Rabbit because it sounds like I'm going to lean towards Mr. Bradley Gee a little more than Mr. Robert Book. But otherwise, well, selling whiskey, having a good time.Bob
You certainly are selling whiskey, man. I don't know if you have been back on the pod since you officially transitioned into your new role, but you have been frequently mentioned on the pod in your new role with Blackwood Distilling Company. First of all, thank you for providing us with so much whiskey.
That is absolutely delicious. We've been raving about the toasted rye. I really do think it's one of our favorite just like everyday pours now, Brad.Brad
Yeah, absolutely. And the new 105s that you guys have put out, just stunningly delicious.Zachary Johnston
We're having some success with those toasted 105s. Like people are really latching onto them and sort of, you know, it's the sort of thing where, you know, you get so deep in the whiskey industry and I'm sure you guys can attest to this. You kind of, you know, miss the forest for the trees sometimes and everything's going to be barrel strength or everything.
If it's scotch, it all has to be, you know, 30 years old and blah, blah, blah. And you realize now you can, like most people out there like things that are delicious, but still easy to drink and approachable. And, you know, not to say for everybody, but sort of, you know, that was our ethos with the toasted 105, both the bourbon and the rye is barrel strength is the niche.
It really is. It's such a tiny percent of the market. No matter what anybody in Texas or any state head says, I'm sorry, it's just not a big percentage of the market at all.
And so this was our attempt to like, can we keep the quality and depth and lusciousness of our toasted products at a little bit lower proof? And it just turned out as we proofed it down, 105 was a sweet spot where we still kept all the depth without sacrificing anything, but also still making it just that little bit easier on the end.Bob
I love it, man. Yeah, Brad has actually been hoarding his bottle of the 105. I haven't gotten to try it yet.
I'm super excited for it because every time we talk even off mic about Blackwood, he's like, dude, this 105 is really, really good stuff. So I'm excited for that. Guys, I'm also excited to talk about this movie, Jojo Rabbit.
We've been vamping for long enough, and I think it's time for us to get to our first segment of the day, which we call Brad Explains.Jingle
Brad's going to give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds ticking on the clock. So let's go ahead and hear you take with this little segment that we call Brad Explains.Bob
Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen, often for the first time. Brad, we know that you saw this movie in the theater and had a lovely time with it. Have you watched it since the theater and prior to this viewing?Brad
Uh, this viewing was probably my fourth or fifth time watching it. Oh, wow.Bob
So this is like a legitimate favorite film of yours.Brad
Yes. Okay. Yeah.
And it's a movie that I have, like, shared with people, and that's usually why I watch a film multiple times. It's pretty rare that I just sit down and go, you know, I'm going to watch a movie that I've seen before by myself. But if I'm sitting with my buddies and they're like, oh, I've never seen Jojo Rabbit, it's going on.
It's happening right then. Yeah, I get it.Zachary Johnston
And dude, this is not to jump in here, but like, dude, this film is weirdly almost too much fun. It's so much fun. I don't know.
It's like a magic trick.Bob
Yeah, it is like truly a crowd pleasing movie. And I guess, Zach, you jumped in. So I'm going to jump in now.
I saw this movie for the first time at the Cleveland Jewish Film Festival of all places to see this movie. It was prior to the film's release. And, you know, I'll get invitations to press screenings of things that happened before the initial release.
Never before and never since has one of those screenings happened as part of a film festival. And it was super interesting. I show up to the theater and everybody there, except a couple critics that had been invited to this screening, had lanyards on that they had just been going to films all day.
And, you know, Cleveland has a pretty sizable Jewish population. But as a film festival, like we're not pulling huge, well-known films. So these people have been watching like these tiny documentaries and independent films all day.
And then we all just are sat for Jojo Rabbit. And it was like the first 10 minutes or so. You could tell that they were still feeling out like.
This is a silly comedy about Hitler. What are we doing here? And I would say by a minute 20, everybody in the audience was bought in.
It was such a fun time. And it's such a great communal movie. So, Brad, I totally get why this is one that you want to put on in a room full of people.Brad
You had that incredible of an experience, and you're still going to give it like a six out of 10.Bob
I'm not actually. I really like this movie. I just I don't know that I would call it one of my favorites of the century.
It's a good movie, though, and I am excited to talk about it. But Brad, your task at the moment is to spoil it for everybody who has not seen it yet. So, folks, if you don't want the movie spoiled for you, you need to hit pause here.
Go watch this hour and 45 minute long movie. Come back and listen to Brad explain it and listen to us break it down. Brad, you get one minute on the clock and go.Brad
Jojo Rabbit is a film about a young German boy named Johannes, who goes by Jojo, who is in the Hitler youth and has an imaginary best friend. I believe he's about nine, 10 years old, and his imaginary best friend is none other than Adolf Hitler. As he as Hitler follows him around, encouraging him and giving voice to his inner monologue, he finds himself at a camp for Hitler youth.
He injures himself with a hand grenade. And for the rest of the film, he works around his local town, pasting signs, doing things for the local party headquarters. In the meantime, he finds out that his mother has been hiding a young Jewish girl.
He at first is abhorred about her presence, but slowly becomes friends with her as the war comes to an end. Nicely done, sir. Thanks, man.
It's like I've seen it five times.Bob
I know, guys, I'll turn it over to you. Where do you want to start with this movie? Because it is a movie that has a very light and deft touch, but is just inherently about very heavy themes.
So I think we could go the themes route here, or we could just kind of dive into talking about, like, let's talk about the look of the movie. Let's talk about the performances and the music and all that stuff. So can I make a suggestion, please?Zachary Johnston
I think maybe we should start with what we maybe feel hasn't aged well or filmically isn't the best or things like that, kind of get that out of the way. And then I'll have we'll just have a good cry by the end of talking about why it's so great. I just rewatched this last night with my wife, sort of just threw it on.
It was a Sunday afternoon watch, and, you know, we were both crying multiple times, especially in the second half. Watching it this time, though, you could really see what T.D. was mimicking in the editing and the script in just a lot of Edgar Wright influence. Obviously, a lot of Tarantino influence, obviously, because everybody's influenced by Tarantino.
That's not a that's not an incrimination or recrimination or anything like that. It's also impressive what they were able to do with so little. I mean, we're talking about a $15 million budget, and he has a proper World War Two scene in the movie.
But it does feel small, which is you could argue that, hey, when you watch the film afterward, and I'm sure they sat there and be like, oh, this feels small. Well, it is from a kid's POV. Everything feels small.
It's like, does it, though? Like, I feel like a kid's POV, everything would feel huge. Um, and it definitely doesn't feel like a kid seeing a big world.
It feels like a little kid in a little world. And it's not like it pulled me out of the movie, but it definitely felt like, oh, this is a small indie movie trying to be, you know, a big boy.Bob
Yeah, yeah.Zachary Johnston
And again, maybe that does play into the theme, and that's what they're going for. I don't think that's true because I know they had to go like film in the Czech Republic just to make the budget work and like work with kids and shit. So, you know, there's always budget restrictions.
But I think overall, those are forgivable things because it's just the reality of the economy of filmmaking. And I would love to, I kind of feel like it would have been more interesting had Taika made this film in 2012 when he wrote the script, as opposed to making Shadows and Wildebeest and Ragnarok. And then this, because there was a bit of a, you could, and this is me going a little too deep on the film stuff, but you could feel him trying to reach back after Ragnarok into being an indie filmmaker, but not quite having the sense there.
It just felt like he was a little mushy in his filmmaking.Bob
Well, let me say this, and I don't think I've ever spoiled my final score on a movie so early on. I've been waffling between a seven and a half and an eight on this movie. I think just for the sake of argument, let's say I met an eight out of ten on this movie, and I mean that in every facet of the film.
I feel like everything this movie goes for, it succeeds at that thing eight out of ten times, and then two out of ten times, it doesn't quite land. And I mean that from everything from, you know, the jokes, the sad scenes, the sets, the movements of the camera, like that you can tell that to your point after Ragnarok going back to this style of filmmaking, how much the Marvel sense of humor has crept into the way the jokes are set up in this movie. And I think the film is actually at its best when it's going for way back in time, classic Hollywood kind of Preston Sturgess influences and even like Mel Brooks style comedy in a lot of places.
But then you have like so many scenes where characters are basically just like, well, that just happened. And they're pulling the Marvel tongue in cheek, like flippant kind of humor out, and it doesn't always mesh for me. It works pretty well.
But I'm with you, Zach, in that I think that you can see the seams of it a little more than you might have been able to if he had jumped right into this after like Hunt for the Wilderpeople or something.Zachary Johnston
Yeah, because the Wilderpeople, man, like that's one of might be my favorite film from Kaika just in that it does feel big, like it's a kid in this huge world, you know, and you know, Sam Neill is obviously the surrogate there. But, you know, he feels small, even though he has a huge personality, right? It just there's a little like, I agree.
And the sort of it oddly feels like it should be a stage play sometimes. And then it goes wide and it's not. And it's sort of like, well, it just there's a little jarriness to it.
If I'm being like a super prick about like film notes, it's like he maybe needed another year or two to like get over the marvel of it all and kind of like settle out of it and let like let that. But again, I still think the film works. I still think there are amazing performances in this.
And it is what I feel almost essential viewing. And to the point that, you know, like the, you know, the Shoah Foundation uses this film for to teach children, like non-Jewish children about, you know, the Shoah, because there are so few really, really poignant films about calamity in general, much less World War II from a child's point of view, like truly from a child's point of view. And so I think that is massively important and can forgive all the nitpicky filmmaking stuff for that.Brad
I will say, though, I feel like Hunt for the Wilder People. Like needs to be so huge because it's covering the vastness of this uncharted terrain and the vastness of the gulf between the dad and the son, you know, the adopted son and so on and so forth. Whereas this one does feel so much more intimate that to me like the smaller setting makes sense.
And the more you take on Thomas and Mackenzie's point of view of being trapped, stuck, you're in this tiny place. I don't know. I did not think of it in terms of being too small, partially because you start off with a really big, wide, huge setting of the camp when, you know, being with the Hitler Youth, it felt like there's unbound terrain for me to go explore and, you know, have adventures in.
And the more the realism of what fascism has done to his life comes to self-awareness for him, the smaller the world feels. I kind of felt like it, the movement there worked.Bob
Yeah, let me say this. I feel like Taika in this movie, this is where Taika, I'll say it, he kind of started to lose me a little bit with this movie and then with what he's done subsequently. In terms of like, I feel like his voice is getting away from him a little bit.
And if I can put a really blunt kind of note on it here, this movie felt to me a lot, you made this point, Zach, if Edgar Wright directed Moonrise Kingdom, this is the movie you get. Like it has the Edgar Wright kind of like smash cuts and, uh, whip pans and everything else. But then you have like some heavily Wes Anderson inspired cinematography, especially in those camp scenes.
And I noticed it as well at the very end of the movie. And it was when I said to myself, like, oh, I think I like Hunt for the Wilderpeople better than this movie, but this feels more like a movie to me. It's, it's when, uh, Jojo is being thrust into that final battle and starts to run away and he like goes and hides in a hollowed out kind of like foundation of a building.
And the way the camera just kind of tracks along with him, and then he stays in the center of the frame, even when he drops down a level in the building, it was a very Wes Anderson kind of dollhouse shot. And, and I think that like, it's good to wear your influences on your sleeve a little bit, but with the writing, with the camera work, with those influences, this one felt less like a purely Taika Waititi movie to me and more like, like Taika Waititi paying homage to 10 other things.Zachary Johnston
Yes. And again, willing to forgive it, but you can't, I can't not see it. You know what I mean?
And also just, just for context, folks, this is the film he did in between Ragnarok and Love and Thunder. And I love Taika to death, but Love and Thunder is a mess, like straight up mess of a film. You like it or not, that's great.
Like you can find enjoyment in anything. Like I like messy films that are unequivocally badly made that still work for me, right? Like we all have our, you know, our, our, our beautiful messes.
Um, and it's sort of like, and then he did Next Goal Wins, which I really enjoyed because he kind of goes back to that pre-Ragnarok Taika Waititi. And sadly, nobody really saw that film. It was a huge flop and it got some critical love, but that was really it.
But, um, and then obviously he was doing The Mandalorian as well after this, which is still in the system. Um, but man, it's also gotta be so hard because I can't even imagine the pressures he was under knowing that he was doing this between two Thor films and he only has so much time before he has to go off and do another Thor and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So not that it, not that he, maybe he was a little rushed.
I don't know, but it does feel like you were saying, leaning a little bit too much on the homage as opposed to his voice. And at least for the love of God, he had the good sense to have the children clothed in the camp scenes and not naked like Wes Anderson does.Bob
I think that's probably the big distinguishing factor for you, Brad, right?Brad
Uh, yeah, we don't need to get into Moonrise Kingdom again. Uh, if you want to go listen to that episode, go for it.Zachary Johnston
I, I, I highly recommend not watching that movie because it is disturbing.Bob
All right. Well, I will say this and let's, this is immediately turning out of that conversation. Those are pretty much my negative notes on the movie.
I think that there is kind of an overarching, like eight out of 10 ness to this movie, but I don't think I'm going to nitpick like individual scenes, individual jokes. If you go into it understanding that's how I feel about the way this movie works, then yes, like two out of every 10 jokes don't land for me. That's still a pretty high success rate.
And Brad, I'm curious because you've been, you've been a little quiet here. I'd love to hear you say more about like why this movie works so completely to you. Like it doesn't sound like you had some of the tonal whiplash that maybe Zach and I had at different points of the movie.
What makes it feel so cohesive to you?Brad
I think that Taika does a really great job of allowing the movie to breathe at the right points. Like he, he gives you kind of a lot to start the film. You, you jump in, you follow him.
He's screaming how Hitler to everybody he sees. And, you know, he finds his way to this camp and he's running around and he's, you know, strength of Fox and Wolf and, you know, Eagle and all these things. And, and then he blows himself up, which is one of the funny.Zachary Johnston
Oh, it's so incredible. And perfectly planted by the kid throwing the knife at the tree and hitting his leg. Perfect plan and payoffs.Brad
Oh, it's perfect. And you like things finally start to slow down a little bit when you meet his mom. And I think that's the key for me is that throughout the film.
The fanaticism of a child in the Hitler youth is only slowed down when it meets with something deeper, right? And like the love of a mother, the relationship between family members, the memory of his sister who has passed away, like these are the things that slow the camera down, that slow the pace of the movie down. And I think it's stuff like that, that third, fourth, fifth watch through.
I started to pick up on and just like, you know, I was already pretty high on this movie. I just really think they do such a masterful job of using the, the cinematography, the music, the lighting to like represent the inner life of this young child that has been squelched by, you know, nationalism and fanaticism come to life because of the beautiful things in his life.Zachary Johnston
Absolutely. And I think, I mean, this is obviously we're spoiling this film, but the whole fact that his mother only exists in the second act, like she bookends the second act of the film in a great way, really does a lot of work of being that counterbalance of we all have children. You guys are a little younger than mine.
Mine are already out in the world. And it is this thing where it's really, really, really hard to be a counterbalance when your child comes home and has learned something that is, you know, morally wrong, or, you know, factually wrong, or, you know, but they're excited about it. You have to walk that tightrope of I like you're excited about this, and you're making friends and you're blah, blah, blah.
But also don't forget who the fuck you are. And don't, you know, sort of get away from that. And without going too deeply, both of my grandparents were in the Hitler Youth in East Prussia.
They're Baltic Germans in what is now Russia and Lithuania and Belarus. And they ended up being ethnically cleansed to Berlin and ended up being in the Battle of Berlin. And, you know, I have photos of my grandfather in that exact Hitler Youth outfit that he's in in the house, you know, the black one, and he had the same knife in the picture and blah, blah, blah.
And lived through an apocalypse, you know, lost his father, you know, his mother ended up remarrying and sort of my grandmother, who was basically Bill's age at the same time, went through just some horrificness, especially after the war during the Soviet occupation. It's the sort of thing where they went through a correction of that fanaticism through apocalypse, not to be blunt, but it was beaten and raped out of them. And, you know, that's how they were corrected.
And so with this film, it is that thing where it's like, where do you draw the line? Where do you be like, no, I got to get my kid out of here. You know, like, I got to like, get away from this as much as possible without like, maybe not having anywhere to run.
And so I think it balances because she, Scarlett Johansson, first of all, should have won an Oscar for this role. Like she is mind-blowingly good in the subtlety of her act when, you know, she's being comedic, but she's also so afraid at the exact same time and on and on and on. And just watching it, you know, I've always like this came out in 2019.
I had my first kid in 2009. So I've always had kids while this movie's existed in my life. But I think one of the reasons it adheres to me so much is like, what would you do?
Like you're a parent with a child, like, and this situation is happening around you. That's overwhelming. And, you know, obviously the film points out that his father has been fighting the resistance abroad and she's, you know, is fighting the resistance at home as much as she can, which is another part of that story that gets left out a lot because we like to look at Germany as a singular thing where, you know, they all were fanatics, but no, there were people fighting this and they lost their lives days and sometimes hours before the end of that war. Berlin, especially, that was notorious for the SS hangman going around, hanging people up until the last second. It's the sort of thing where this film, the way he works with Scarlett Johansson and Sam Rockwell in this movie is some of the best, I think, performances of the last maybe two decades.Bob
Yes, absolutely. Well, let me segue us then into talking about these performances because I have, I think, a pretty spicy take on these performances and it requires us to set aside Taika Waititi as Hitler for a minute because that's I mean, like he's he's just being Taika Waititi as Hitler.Brad
Aside from just so you know, Bob, he is credited as Adolf.Bob
Sure, sure. There's essentially four main actors then in this movie. So you have the two children, Roman Griffin Davis and Thomas and Mackenzie, and then you have Scarlett Johansson and Sam Rockwell.
And I think in order to get to my spicy take, we want to I want to start with Jojo, Roman Griffin Davis, this young boy who I looked his Wikipedia up, apparently a nepo baby of some sort. Both of his parents are in the movie business. He gives a really good performance for a child performance.
And I do think, Brad, that we've established enough on this podcast that like there's only really one or two child performances we've ever seen that you don't have to grade on the curve of child performances like Haley Joel Osment in The Sixth Sense is one of the best acting performances I've ever seen from anyone at any age. And I think Roman Griffin Davis is like very, very good. But there's just a couple scenes with him that I'm like, oh, man, I really wish that I could have gotten 10 percent more out of you because it would have been like the most impactful thing ever.
And I hate saying that about a child performance, but like he's almost there for me. And then it falls like just shy of of like an all time kid performance.Brad
Yeah. And that's the thing is he's so good for so much of the movie that like you 100 percent understand why he was cast like he is incredible in the role of Jojo. I'm kind of with you that there's.
There we go.Bob
Yeah, yeah. It's the scene with Scarlett Johansson shoes that, yeah, it should be the scene that makes me cry the hardest. And I think it's because I can see the kid like trying to make himself cry in that scene that it doesn't work.Bob
Yeah.Bob
But then there's a scene later in the movie with Sam Rockwell where he does like the little kid whimper when he's crying. And I freaking lost it, dude. Like it was so naturalistic.
So it's just one of those things where there's a few inconsistencies in the performance.Zachary Johnston
Yeah. And it's sort of. That's why he won best screenplay and not best director.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's sort of also evidently that was all reshot, all the winter stuff. You can tell when he's walking that way.
He's an older kid. He's like six months older. Yeah.
And so I don't know what happened there and why they had to reshoot that. But he yeah, it's 90 percent there. Right.
Yeah. Right. And everyone else is, in my opinion, at 100, like just straight up.Brad
I was about to say, man, my notes on Scarlett Johansson are a singular word. Perfect. Sam Rockwell is the only person who has like only secondary character who has like a legitimate arc.
And by the end of it, you're just like, how do I why do I love this character? Yeah. So, so much.
And Thomas and Mackenzie is easily like I would put her up there. And Bob, you and I have talked about this. At what point do you kind of hit the non child actor performance?
Because I believe she was like 18 when she did this movie.Zachary Johnston
Yeah, she was. Yeah.Brad
So not quite a kid performance. I think she just knocked it out of the park, regardless of how old she was.Bob
Every once in a while, like I watch so many movies that, you know, you see an up and coming person. She did this movie a year or two before this that was called Leave No Trace. It was an indie movie where she and her father are like survivalists out in the woods.
And like they're, you know, they're being chased down because they're going to take her from her dad. She's so good in that movie that I was like, oh, this is one of those kid actors that is actually acting at the level of a grown woman at this point. And then she got this movie and it was like, OK, everything has been confirmed for me.
And, you know, her career is like on the slow uptick. She's had some big roles. I feel like we're still waiting on that, like star making for performance from her.
But she's just so, so good. And it was one of those moments where seeing this movie was such a validating feeling because you see her in an even smaller role and you make a mental note like I'm going to remember this person because she's so good. And then, you know, she's gone on to do bigger and better things since then.Zachary Johnston
Yeah, the way she truly acts with her whole body, like the tenseness, like her holding back, you can see her holding back shaking by like tensing up, especially when the Gestapo's in the house. And even when she first meets Jojo, you can see her like the rage is there, but she knows she has to hold it back because it's a kid and blah, blah, blah. It's just that it's a fully three dimensional performance.Brad
The first time I saw this and every single subsequent viewing when she says break free Great Aryan, there are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God.
You were chosen by a fat man with greasy hair and half a mustache. Like what? What a great line, man.Bob
Just give that man an Oscar.Brad
Yeah. Like what are the best written lines paired with one of just the best deliveries of any line in the film? I like and like the Bible student in me was like, yes, like wrestling angels, killing giants.
Let's freaking go.Zachary Johnston
Or even her first real line to Jojo when he discovers her and she comes out and he says, well, or maybe the first thing where you ask her like what Jews are, he's like, well, we're human beings. Unlike you were human beings.Bob
It's just something. Yeah, yeah.Zachary Johnston
And it's just such a like every dialogue just was so, so, so good. And the same I have to say, like I know Sam Rockwell, I think a lot of his character got a lot of heat for being a little too out there. But the detail, and this goes more into production design, I guess, and costuming, but the detail that they lay into his character.
And again, this is going a little too nerdy, but like this is a guy who's a hardcore war hero. And a lot of like a lot of the accommodations he has are really specific, as in he like saved people's lives. And that's the sort of travesty of a fascistic organization run by idiots.
It's anyone who actually has empathy and who is there to be intelligent and protect people, as opposed to just run into the cannon fire. They don't want them there. And so he's sent off to like go do Hitler Youth stuff, even though he's a hero multiple times over.
And obviously sort of a hero by the end as well, truly so. And even not to skip to the end, but Alfie Allen as his sort of assistant and their costumes at the end. And just the detail of they put all over, they put all over the pink triangles that the Nazis forced homosexual men to wear before they were sent to camps.
And just those details where they were like, you know, they probably had to put that on somebody knowing who they really were. And, you know, it's a hell of a way to go out.Brad
Alfie Allen, definitely not his lover.Bob
Yeah, that's obviously like the character arc. I'm so glad you brought up Sam Rockwell because Sam Rockwell wins an Oscar for Three Billboards, which is a movie that I didn't like when I first saw it. And I feel very validated that most people have turned on it in the years since.
Sam Rockwell, innocent, I will say. But also, I felt very much watching this movie and then seeing him not get any recognition for it that Three Billboards kind of punished him from getting further recognition because the characters are a little bit similar, I guess. But I think it's just Sam Rockwell being Sam Rockwell.
And he's one of these few people that in everything he's in, he is very much a Sam Rockwell character, but he does it with such effortlessness. And he can so quickly jump to these places of deep empathy and connection. You know, Brad, it kind of reminds me of in a different way, but it reminds me of what about Paul Giamatti's skill in The Holdovers, that he's essentially just being Paul Giamatti for a lot of the movie.
But why you book Paul Giamatti is his ability to just jump immediately to those moments that make you cry with a flip of a switch. And Rockwell does it here. And I think, guys, my spicy take here is that two people in this cast of the four main characters got a lot of attention, Roman Griffin Davis and Scarlett Johansson.
And I'm not with you guys on Scarlett Johansson's perfection in this movie. I actually like I'm fairly cool on her here, mostly because of the accent work, also because this is the year that she does Marriage Story. And I just think she's a million times better in Marriage Story than she is here.
But my spicy take is that the two wrong people got the attention for this movie, because I think Thomas and Mackenzie and Sam Rockwell both should have been nominated for Oscars for this movie. And I guess like we're splitting hairs when we're talking about who should have been Oscar nominated and who shouldn't have. But I've always preferred those two performances because I feel like they really do anchor the movie.Zachary Johnston
Yeah. And also my guess would be because Oscars have campaigns like you have to choose to be nominated and do all that stuff like the Oscars have never and will never just randomly nominate the best person for whatever the category is. It's never happened.
Will never happen. And because Sam Rockwell did just go through that the film before with three billboards, maybe he was just like, yo, pull my name. I don't I don't I'm not doing that again.
You know, it could literally be that like that was people were pissed off for the Academy not nominating inside Llewellyn Davis for anything, especially Oscar Isaac. It's like they chose not to go after nominations. So therefore, you gotta play the game.
They don't get one. Like, that's how it works. I'm sorry.
It's sort of I disagree, man. Scarlett Johansson has a hold on that role that is, I think, astounding because there is just a subtle sadness to it, even even when she's being funny, even when she's trying to, you know, give her son like valuable information about life. And it's just it's all she's always there's only really a moment where she's like she feels free.
And it's when they're riding the bike and she's they see the soldiers coming back from the front and she tells them to go home and kiss their mother when she truly knows that it's almost over. And I think there's a nice, which is really sad because of what happens next. But it's it's that's what makes it so tragic because she's free in that moment for the first time riding that bike with her son.
And then you never see her again. And it's just like, yeah.Brad
For me, it's wild because Roman Griffin Davis and Thomas and Mackenzie turn in like, you know, Mackenzie turns in an incredible younger person performance. Davis turns in a really, really good one. Out of all the adult actors in this film, Scarlett Johansson and Sam Rockwell have to do so much heavy lifting because like Tyka is fine, but he's Tyka.
Like he he is an actor, but he is a very one dimensional actor. And that's OK. Like he he's a director and he knows it.
Yeah, exactly. You know, we talked about Alfie Allen. He's fine, but he's not asked to do anything.
Rebel Wilson. Not great. I wish he was not in this movie.
And, you know, there's bad casting, bad casting.Zachary Johnston
Exactly. Why no Oscar for director?Brad
Yeah, exactly. And so I think when I look at Scarlett and Sam in this, we've already talked about Sam and why he's incredible. I think that when you watch Scarlett walking along a pathway or she's walking on the like the fence, the stone fence and her little son is walking beneath her like you feel this motherly love and sadness.
And I don't know what to do because I know that if I try to tell my kid what's actually right, he and I might both get killed as well as this girl that I'm trying to take care of. And my husband is off fighting a war that I don't I literally cannot hear what he's doing and that like the weight of the world is on her shoulders. And man, when she walks over and pulls the charcoal and gives herself a beard and like screams at her son like you can feel the anger that she has towards the world.
But that kid is the only person in the room that can hold it. And it's and she lets it out on him and she hates herself for it. And she doesn't want to do that.
I like there's just so many things she does in this movie. This is, I would say, one of my absolute favorite performances all time.Bob
Wow. Yeah. And again, I'm just I'm a marriage story guy.
What can you do? But let me say very quickly, but I love marriage story, man. Like, yeah, Scar Jo is incredible in marriage.
Listen, she's so good that she's nominated for both movies. Like she's nominated for Best Actress for Marriage Story and for Best Supporting Actress for this movie. That is a very rare feat.
And I'm not trying to take anything away from Scar Jo here. I think she should have won it for both. Kinda.Zachary Johnston
Can I ask a question? Sure. What?
So comedy, World War Two, very rarely works. Very rare as well. How did the comedy work for you guys in this film?Bob
Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, Zach, I think that might be a good topic for a jumping off point for after the break, because that gets us into talking about the script. And you've already mentioned multiple times, like it's a great script.
It won the Oscar. There's a reason Taika didn't win Best Director. And I feel like this first half has really spoken to that.
Let's talk about why we like the script so much and whether or not the comedy works for us. Brad, I think it's time for us to hit pause here. Let's go drink some Barrell Dovetail.
What do you say? Dude, I am always ready to drink Barrell. All right.
So today we are checking out Barrell Dovetail Gold Label. Brad, we freaking love Barrell craft spirits around here. Again, Barrell, we are buyable.
You can send us residual checks for the amount of publicity we give you. I just want to put that out there. So over the years, Barrell has released a couple different expressions of some of their most famous SKUs.
So Dovetail was a very popular bourbon. And then in, I think, 2020, they started developing these kind of premium lines, Barrell Gray Label and Barrell Gold Label, which are like the next steps up in those SKUs. So it's like Barrell Dovetail, but made with more well-aged stock or somehow rarer bourbon.
And that was Gray Label. And then they came out with the Gold Label version of Barrell Dovetail. Now, this is made from whiskeys that are finished in rum, port, and cabernet barrels.
They're distilled in Indiana, Tennessee, and Canada. So for our Canadian friends, we're working that in here. It's not bourbon.
Now, crucially, Brad, the proof point on this is 140.18. This is a hazmat-level bourbon or hazmat-level whiskey.Brad
This is some hefty stuff. And let me tell you, man, having drank it, it packs a punch.Bob
Let me go ahead and read the copy from their website, just so we can get a little more context here. It says, over the past several years, Barrell Dovetail has become a highly regarded expression within our portfolio of products. After the success of the Gray Label version, we decided to apply the concept of dovetail to our oldest, rarest stocks.
Gold Label Dovetail is created with the same finishing and blending method and incorporates whiskeys that are aged for up to 25 years. So this is a super premium, super rare whiskey we're drinking today. 140 proof.
I am prepping my taste buds. Brad, I'm going to stick my nose in this glass. If I pass out from the ethanol, you know what to do.
You just keep vamping, man, till I come back.Brad
Sounds good, man. This nose is stunning. Now, I will say, normally with higher proof whiskeys, I give it a chance to clear out before I write a note of ethanol.
Because, you know, I don't just want to say, like, ah, it smells like ethanol. It doesn't matter what you do, man. This one has ethanol to it.
It has a bite. It's 140 proof. Put your big boy pants on because we're going for a ride.
Once you work yourself through a little bit of the ethanol, there is caramel. There's, like, a really nice, strong cinnamon stick vibe. It gets a little bit creamy the longer I spend time with it.
And it reminds me of almost, like, strawberries and cream. Like, it has a little bit of fruitiness to it that I did not expect. I'm going to give this an 8.5 out of 10. I really, really like this nose a lot.Bob
I like this too. I wonder, though, if I need to let it sit in the glass a little longer to open up because it's so ethanol heavy. I like it.
But I would say initial impressions are that it's not super complex on the nose for me. It's like ethanol. And then you push past that, and it's really dusty oak.
It's, you know, exactly what we expect from a well-aged whiskey. Super dusty. Like, I really, really like it in that sense.
And then I push past that, and I get that cinnamon note you're talking about. And it gets a little bit of almost like a root beer kind of, what is that? Like, sarsaparilla to me.
I like it. But, again, for something that I know how much this costs, I'm a little bit, like, just a tiny bit let down by how not complex I'm finding the notes on this nose. Now, again, like, it might open up a little bit, and I might start getting some of those, like, port or cabernet notes.
But for me, I didn't get any of the wine influence on the nose. Brad, did you? Not especially.Brad
It still, it feels a little bit rich and kind of decadent, but not in a, like, grape-forward, earthy wine flavor.Bob
Yeah, so I actually think I'm going to set expectations a little lower here, and then hopefully get wowed by what comes from here. I'm going to give it a seven and a half on the nose.Brad
I think the palate is where this really turns into a superstar. Like, there is oak on this in a really beautiful way. It's got coconut.
There's brown sugar. And it really feels like there's this, like, dark cherry syrup just deliciousness going on. I think that the palate here has so much to offer in so many beautiful ways.
It has a little bit of nuttiness to it. I cannot speak highly enough of this. I'm going to give it a nine and a half out of ten.Bob
Yeah, I think I'm going to come up to, I mean, I'm at an eight and a half or a nine on the palate. I'm deciding as I talk here. The grape influence is right there from the beginning.
Like, what was not there on the nose is there on the tip of my tongue. Really, really nice, bright grape notes there. As you start to kick it to the mid palate, I was worried that it was going to become almost like sickly sweet, like an overripe fruit when you're like, oh, this was a mistake to eat this.
Because it has almost like when it's so sweet that it's starting to turn sour again as a fruit. And then when I went to swallow it, it was right when you were talking about coconut. And I got like this insane toasted coconut note on the back of my palate that really helped balance out all of those like insanely grapey notes.
I think as you swallow, and this is kind of tipping into finish, but not quite like the rum character comes out a little bit. And I'm not a huge rum drinker, Brad. So it was interesting, like how much influence that had on the back of the palate.
All that taken into account, this is a super complex palate. There's a lot going on here, and it definitely makes up for the nose. I think I will come up to a 9 out of 10 on the palate.Brad
Yeah, the finish continues where the palate left off. There is black cherry. There's a ton of brown sugar.
It's very cinnamony. And honestly, the oakiness kind of disappeared on the finish, which is great. Like I really like having that oak flavor on the palate.
And then it kind of dissipates. It doesn't turn sour or bitter in any way. I'm going to give it a 9 out of 10 here on the finish.Bob
You know, I got to be honest, man, like this is very clearly a barrel proof whiskey. And the first sip, the heat builds well after you swallow. It reminds me of eating like a like an atomic fireball or like red hots, like something with cinnamon that creeps up on you.
Despite how spicy it is and how prickly it is. I don't think this drinks like 140 proof. Like, it's really quite smooth for a hazmat level whiskey, Brad.
And I think that's to be commended. And especially on the second sip. Once you have your your tongue coated in this the first time around, really syrupy, really oily.
It's viscous as hell. And it's it becomes really easy to drink, which is super dangerous. Like literally health wise.
Yeah. Dangerous. Dude, how crushable this is.Brad
This is crushable, man. It is so easy to drink. Just incredible.
Did you give your finished score?Bob
I haven't yet. I do think, Brad, that I am a little bit out on this one when it comes to how much the finish is influencing the flavor here. Like, it's just a little too much for me on the rum and on the cabernet.
I wish there was just slightly less grape influence here. I like it. But of all of barrels products like this is probably not for me.
So I'm going to come down to a seven and a half on the finish. Oh, man, I that is wild. It's weird because I think it's like this.
No, like it's it's exceptionally well made. But I'm like, at a certain point, you just have to acknowledge when it's like it's like watching a movie that you're like, this is a great Western. At the end of the day, I don't like Westerns that much.
You know what I mean? And I think where it's like this is one of those whiskeys where, damn, this is super good for a whiskey that has like a ton of wine influence. At the end of the day, I don't want my whiskey to taste this much like wine.
So there's only so far I can go with praising it before it's like, yeah, that's really, really good. Objectively, just not for me. Yeah.Brad
Yeah. No, that that totally makes sense when you just are wrong. It makes sense, man.
I get it. Uh, for me, this balance is a nine out of ten. Uh, they do a masterful job of giving you an exceptional bourbon experience with a little bit of a wine influence that is not overwhelming in any way, shape or form.
And it'd be ridiculous to say so.Bob
You know what? I had a third sip and maybe it's because it's 140 proof and I'm three sips deep now. I'm going to come up to an eight on the finish and I will give it an A.
I will give it a nine on balance. I think that like, despite the nose letting me down a little bit, this is, it's so complex that it kind of makes sense why all of those notes wouldn't come out in the nose. And it's just like the things that were most prominent on the nose.
They're still there on the palate. That third sip was like a cinnamon bomb. And I think that my palate is getting used to some of those grapey notes now.
So I'm retroactively, I'm coming up a little bit. I'm at a 33 and a half out of 40 on just the flavor here. So now we're talking about value and folks, this is a $500 bottle of whiskey.
So once we get into the luxury category, we kind of treat all price points as the same because if you are a luxury whiskey shopper, you're not, you're no longer deterred by price. It could be 300. It could be 1200.
And if you want that whiskey, you're going to buy it. So taken as a quote unquote premium whiskey, Brad, where do you think the value lies on this one? Eight out of 10.Brad
Like, I think that if you spent $500 on this whiskey, knowing what you're getting into, this is like a very classic wine finished bourbon. But better like, like it's a luxury finished bourbon that those rum notes give it a little bit of that coconut flavor. That is something I haven't really experienced on a bourbon before.
I just, I really think barrel knocked it out of the park as per the use.Bob
I'm going to give it a six out of 10. And it's because I don't know enough about like, what's actually going in here. You know, it says that there's whiskeys aged up to 25 years.
I imagine these are super rare whiskeys at this point because how many whiskies make it up to 25 years, but beyond that, $500 is just a lot of money. And with the sample bottle that I'm drinking out of, I just don't have quite the transparency that I would need to determine if it's worth my $500 flavor wise. It's a really good whiskey.
I do think that it is falling in kind of like, you know, the upper third of barrel products that we've tried, but I could probably name seven or eight barrel products off the top of my head that I like better than this one. So when I take all that into consideration, not a poor value, but I will just give it a six out of 10 on value, which is taking my final score out to a lower than expected 39 and a half, Brad. I am at a 44 out of 50, Bob.
44. Okay. So we have diverged a little bit here, Brad, but honestly, less than I thought we would have.
That brings our final score out to a 41.75 out of 50 or an 83 and a half out of 100. Listen, it's pretty rare that barrel ever falls below an 80 out of 100 for us. They just consistently produce 40 out of 50 whiskeys or better.
And this is no exception to that.Brad
Yeah, barrel craft spirits continues to be one of the best in the business. They just make great whiskey at the affordable value all the way up to the luxury value. So if you find yourself looking for a very special bourbon, you could do much worse than barrels dovetail gold label.Bob
All right, man. What do you say we rejoin Zach and keep talking about Jojo Rabbit? Let's get to it.Brad
All right, everybody. That was barrel craft spirits dovetail gold label whiskey that I was like extraordinarily high on. Bob, you were close.Bob
I mean, yeah, I think I gave it around a 40. I was pretty close, you know? Yeah.
Listen, barrel can do no wrong in our eyes. We love them. They give us really good whiskey a lot of the time.
And speaking of things that can do no wrong, how about my record this season at two facts and a falsehood?Jingle
Brad is going to try to stump you Bob. two are right. And one is wrong! Two facts and a falsehood.Brad
I mean, doing no wrong would would imply that you're perfect on the year.Bob
Two facts and a falsehood is the part of the show where Brett presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie. Brad, I am coming off of an L last week on our moneyball episode. So you're right.
I have done wrong and I don't really know what else to say there. But I feel like I can redeem myself this week, especially with Zach here. Zach dives deeper on film than I could ever hope to.
And I say that as a threat. Zach, don't don't leave me straight here, man. I'll do my best.
All right, Brad, hit me with those two facts and a falsehood.Brad
Fact number one, director Taika Waititi discovered in his research that World War II Germany was very vibrant and fashionable and was interested in shying away from traditional war films that presented it as dark and dreary. Fact number two, director Taika Waititi remained in his Hitler costume throughout large portions of the film's production, sometimes wearing it on days that he was not even being filmed. Fact number three, in one scene, director Taika Waititi's Hitler character appears in a traditional Native American headdress.
Hitler himself was a fan of German writer Carl May, whose most famous books were supposed autobiographical tales set in the American West featuring an Apache man named Winnetou.Bob
All right, Zach, my gut reaction is that number three is true. Uh, Brad typically doesn't go to that much effort to lie to me. So I'm going to say that one's true.
The one that's sticking out like a sore thumb to me is number two. I feel like as goofy as Taika is, he's not he's not the kind of provocateur that would purposely dress as Hitler all the time. Like, this is not a Sacha Baron Cohen kind of a thing.
No. And I kind of feel like that one might be the falsehood. Although number one, like you could convince me that number one's false as well.Zachary Johnston
So I'm getting worried about semantics here because with number one, I feel like Brad, you said Taika was looking back at the time and the vibrancy of it, where I feel like that might be correctly. The costume designer was looking back at the time and like saw the vibrance of it and wanted to emulate that as opposed to Taika. I don't know if that's too semantic.
Also with number two is even on days he wasn't filming, he might still have been in the wardrobe for doing coverage and acting against the kids. So he might have been off screen, might not have been filmed that day, but he was still in the tunic.Brad
I love when you guys get lost in the sauce.Zachary Johnston
It's just great. Brad or Bob, I do agree with you. I cannot see Taika Waititi just wearing that costume for the sake of wearing that costume.
He hated playing Hitler. Very famously, the whole thing, he was like, did you do any research? He's like, fuck no, I didn't do any research.
What are you talking about? That's ridiculous about Hitler's mannerisms and stuff like that. He's like, no.
So I just can't see him unless, again, I'm getting too lost in the sauce, as Brad said.Bob
Here's my last, I think I'm going to go with number two. You were even mentioning off mic a bit ago that Taika has done a lot of filmmaking and promotion in Berlin. And so he knows the area well, I would assume.
And I feel like I've never been to Berlin. I've been in Germany, but I've never been in Berlin. I know that it was considered an epicenter for elegant, high fashion.
It is one of the founding areas of the Art Deco movement.Bob
Hugo Boss, baby.Bob
Yeah, I would be surprised to learn that he was surprised to find that out. It seems like a well-known fact. So I'm going to assume one is true.
Brad, I'm going to lock in number two as my falsehood. You guys have correctly sussed out the falsehood. And it only took us 14 minutes, Brad.
That's right.Zachary Johnston
I mean, it just like, I can't imagine him. I imagine him like finishing his scene and carrying that fucking shit off of him and just being like, get this off of me. Yeah.
I mean, he's still going to hang it up for wardrobe. Don't get me wrong, but you know what I mean? Yeah.Brad
You know, he was asked multiple times, like, what's it like being, you know, half Jewish and playing Hitler? He's like, why would you want to do that? And he's like, I can't imagine a better F you to Hitler than to have a Jew play him.Bob
Yeah. Well, so that's a great segue out of this and into what we were going to talk about here. I remember watching a documentary a few years ago, and I didn't look it up.
So forgive me if I get the title wrong. I think it was called The Last Laugh, and it was all about Jewish comedians and why they have used humor as a way of dealing with the generational trauma of the Holocaust. Like, why does Mel Brooks consistently dress up as Hitler?
Why is he always doing Nazi salutes? And it was such a fascinating exploration, especially of American Jews and how they responded to that. But then there's a part in the movie where they show, like, the producers or something to, like, Holocaust survivors.
And they're like, what the fuck is they? They're so angry. They're like, this isn't why you can't make that man is the devil.
You can't parody the devil. You weren't there to see the atrocities. And it was such a fascinating exploration of, like, from culture to culture, they have this shared heritage and background, but some of them deal with it by lampooning it and softening its impact by making it ridiculous.
And to others, it's like, obviously, the Nazis aren't sacred. But what happened to their ancestors is you can't desecrate their memory by making fun of it. And I think that's a great segue into what you were asking us about, Zach, the humor in this movie, because I think that there are moments where it's very pointed.
And especially when you see the written word, I think it's a brilliant script to read, like to physically read. But then there are also moments where it tips too far into the marvelous stuff, where then it does feel like you're being too flippant with a really serious subject here. Brad, I'm curious what you thought about the comedy.Brad
I think it works really well to me. This was actually Taika at his maybe not most, but more restrained. Like, I thought his use of comedy was solely aimed at Hitler and, like, actual Nazi fanatics, right?
There is no humor that bites towards Thomas and McKenzie, towards Scarlet, towards Sam Rockwell. It only hits towards Taika's version of Hitler, towards Rebel Wilson, towards some of the Nazis that really take it seriously. So for me, I thought it worked really well.Zachary Johnston
I mean, there's definitely humor with Rockwell and Alfie Allen. Sure. When Alfie Allen brings in a whole bunch of farming shepherds, when he asks for German shepherds, and screams at him, and then immediately turns, it's like, I'm so sorry I screamed at you.
It's a stupid name for a dog. You did the best you could. That is hilarious.
That is a hilarious sequence that I'm glad wasn't left on the cutting room floor, because yeah, it pays off later. But again, it doesn't even have to – you don't need that plan for that to pay off anyway. Sure.
Because of the Volkssturm and all that. But I'm so glad that was left in, because it is just so absurd and perfect. And when he's showing Jojo his drawings for their uniforms, and he's like – and this is all trademarked, by the way, or copywritten – and Alfie Allen brings it in, that means you can't write it.Bob
It's just – I do think that they do – like, by pointing out how insane the stuff that the Nazis were teaching their children about the Jews were, like, it allows it to be ridiculous from the get-go. And it's never really vocalized by the adults, even when the Gestapos show up at one point. You know, like, the humor there is just in how much they say, Heil Hitler.
But you don't really see them tipping too much into the, like, Jewish stereotype stuff that comes out of Jojo's mouth. And when he's first interviewing Thomas and Mackenzie's character, and she's, like, giving him, like, the history of Judaism, which is complete, you know, BS, and she says something like – or I wrote it down – in the beginning, we used to live in caves, and we were creatures with one thing in common. And Jojo's, like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, stealing the ends of penises.
That was one of my favorite lines in the whole movie. Yeah.Bob
She's, like, what?Bob
No! He's, like, oh, so you don't steal penises? It's fantastic, man.
And I think that Taika is smart enough to know that, like, putting ridiculous statements in the mouth of an innocent kid, a super naive kid, allows you to both laugh at the ridiculousness of it and forgive the kid for parroting it, but also know the whole time, like, the underlying evil of how that's being disseminated. It's really – it's a really nice balance.Zachary Johnston
And so – and I agree with both of you, and I actually have a point to make about the Hell Hitler stuff – the absurdity of it. Like, the absurdity of dumb people getting to create the culture. And so, just a very quick story.
You guys can cut this out if you don't want it in. But my great-grandfather was a grocer and importer in Danzig in the 1930s, became – you know, had to go into the Wehrmacht, because everybody did. And his job in the Wehrmacht was to import products and then send them out to the front.
And so, he sort of ran a, like, a depot, right? And one day, he was going through his schedule, and a guy came in, and the Hell Hitler – because every time someone came in, the greeting was Hell Hitler. It wasn't hello.
It wasn't, hey, how are you doing? It's Hell Hitler. And at the end of the day, he was sort of tired, and he was a jokey, funny guy, like, a sort of boisterous, funny guy.
And he said, you know what I need? The guy came in to sort of collect whatever. He says, you know what I need?
I need a spring under my arm, because all day, I'm just going Hell Hitler, Hell Hitler, Hell Hitler all day. So, that guy went to the Gestapo and reported him for making a joke about Hitler. What?
The next day, he woke up to go to work, was intercepted by the SS, and sent to the Eastern Front. And this was in late 43, early 44. And so, he ended up on the Eastern Front until, obviously, the fall back all the way to Berlin.
So, he was on the front for 18 months, survived, amazingly, somehow. And so, he was sent to a slave labor camp. And basically, that was a death sentence at the time.
Like, nobody knew that they'd be released in 51 or 54, whenever they did, release them in from those slave camps. And so, around 49, he decided to escape. And the way he figured out he could escape is, if you got injured, he was in a salt mine.
And so, if you got injured, they just throw you out of the camp and let the wolves and bears eat you, because there's no way you would survive. And so, what he did is, he took a jackhammer, and he put it through his calf. So, he was injured, knowing that they'd just throw him out of the camp.
And so, somehow, he survived walking back from Siberia to Berlin in 49, got home, saw his son one last time, and died the next day. Wow. And he was 42 years old.
Oh, my gosh, man. And so, that Heil Hitler scene, the absurdity of that is hilarious, but also, like, that was real. Like, can you imagine your life where every single time you see someone, you have to do something that stupid?
Yeah, yeah. And then your life depends upon it.Brad
Yeah. And the commentary of, like, the people who want to stop humor, the people who want to suppress any form of comedy about themselves, like, it's not a good look. Zach, have you ever seen As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me?Zachary Johnston
I have not, no.Brad
Oh, so, it's a film about a German POW in Siberia who walks through Siberia. He goes down to Kazakhstan, through Turkey, and then back up. It was made in, like, 2006.
It's a German film. It looks like it was made in 1986. Okay, great, great.
And it's an incredible movie, and you should watch it. I just looked it up, and I will.Bob
Zach, this is obviously a very personal movie for you, just with your own family's connections, but, you know, you lived in Berlin for a number of years. I'm wondering, like, A, like, does this feel true to your experience there in terms of how they were mimicking that area on film? But then also, like, what do the lasting scars of this period still have on that area in Germany?Zachary Johnston
Good point. It very much looks like that area. Like, I mean, it was shot just over the border in the Czech Republic, but it all looks the same, like, not to be flippant.
So, the accuracy of the look of the town and everything is spot on. Like, I was – I literally turned to my wife, and I was like, I miss living over there. Like, I miss those little towns where you go to a little beer bar, and you get, you know, a nice lunch, goulash and dumplings or whatever.
But anyway, yeah, I mean, Berlin's still being rebuilt. Like, let's face it, like, what we had to do to defeat the Nazis last time was, you know, we were doing a Hiroshima to Berlin every two weeks for 18 months in bombings. You know, like, it's – you know, folks, go look up the fire bombing of Hamburg, that, and then the bombing they had to do the next day.
It is horrifying what happened in that country. And that's one thing that a little bit bothers me about the end of this film, not to sort of jump ahead. But I know she says, you know, dance when it's over, and it's great and everything.
But it's like, those scars don't go away. I mean, I had a cousin, my family mostly immigrated to Canada, then to the United States when they finally let them in. Then I had a cousin who was like an aunt, you know, generation up, my grandfather's cousin who was like an aunt to me.
Every time there was a thunderstorm, she would piss her pants and hide under the kitchen table because she thought it was bombings. And she, like, could not get out of her brain that they weren't bombings, because she, you know, lived through so many of them. I mean, my grandfather was buried twice.
My grandmother, like, they bombed her whole neighborhood. And her house was the only one left standing in that neighborhood. And when they walked out, they saw the American bomb with fuck you on it.
And the propeller was still spinning, and it just didn't detonate for whatever reason. And so those scars, like, never left. Like, they're, you know, like, with Ilse's character, like, the fact that the Russians are there is a bad sign for someone like her.
Like, that's not going to be a fun next few years. You need a happy ending in a film like this, because they did survive, and that's the most important thing. And then, you know, just the rest you deal with it day to day, right?
And so for me, what I loved about this film is, though, the accuracy of the absurdity of it. I know there's a lot of war films out there, and I feel like this film is weirdly accurate for how absurd it is, and, like, obviously comedic and stuff like that. But, like, the whole final scene with the Volkssturm and, you know, the German shepherds fighting with the kids, like, that's real, man.
And, like, the sort of madness of it. And there's this guy, you might know him, James Holland, who's a war historian. Like, he gave this film, like, a 10 of 10 rating for its reality, for its authenticity.
Like, if you look, I just rewatched Schindler's List as well, which is nine-tenths of a masterpiece. And I tend to agree with Michael Haneke's critique of that, where the Auschwitz shower scene is unforgivable in that film, like, unforgivable to put that in that film. Because the whole sequence relies on us knowing what happens there, and then pulling the rug out and having it to be a shower.
That is unfucking forgivable to manipulate the viewer in that way, especially given who the prime audience is for that. We're survivors. I feel like with so many, and there's another Michael Haneke quote, it's, like, impossible to make an anti-war film.
I feel like Taika kind of did it. This is a pretty good anti-war film that feels truly anti-war.Bob
Yeah. And I think it falls into, like, so many... I think it confirms what most anti-war films are trying to do.
Like, it portrays both the horror, the loss, the grief, the trauma, but then also the complete absurdity and buffoonery. Like, it does line up with a Dr. Strangelove, or, you know, where you are just watching the dumbest people on Earth be in control. And, Brad, I'm going to segue us into our final segment here in just a second, but I say that because, you know, we said earlier that there's a lot of different types of comedy in this movie.
And I personally am attracted to the really witty, like, when you read it on the page, it's even better, you know, in the style of a Billy Wilder or even a Mel Brooks that you get in some of the scenes here. I'm wondering, Brad, like, of all the different types of comedy that worked for you in this film, like, were there any particular moments or, I guess, types that worked better than others?Brad
I mean, I think that who is the actor who plays his young friend?Zachary Johnston
Oh, yeah, the kid from Home Alone. Yeah.Brad
Yorkie.Zachary Johnston
Yes. I love Yorkie.Brad
Freaking kills me the entire movie.Bob
When at the end, when he's just like, yeah, it's a pretty bad time to be a Nazi right now.Zachary Johnston
Just when he shows up wearing that cardboard uniform. Yep. And then he runs away and be like, this doesn't feel right.Bob
Yeah. My it's my favorite line. I wrote down the whole line is where give me a second to pull it up when he says.
There are bigger things to worry about than Jews, Jojo. There's Russians somewhere out there. They're worse than anyone.
I heard they eat babies and have sex with dogs. I mean, like, that's bad, right? And just like sex with dogs.
He goes, yeah, the Englishmen do it, too. We have to stop them before they eat us and screw all our dogs. That was the moment where it was like, it's such a stupid thing to believe.
And it also goes to show how anyone who was well, and but like the propaganda of anyone who's opposing the Germans is automatically like a demon who eats babies and sleeps with your dog, you know?Zachary Johnston
Right. Because he heard that from an adult. An adult told him that earnestly.
And that's just like, oh, my God. But also, like, I love Yorkie as well, because he's just like, I have a girlfriend now. He's like, oh, good for you, Jojo.
Like, really sweetly. And like, at the end, he's like, I think I need to go home and see my mom. I need a cuddle.Brad
Oh, like, and like, that's the key for me in this movie is that it. The line that you just read, Bob, is in the midst of the final act of the film where Taika takes you on this horrific journey through the conquering of Berlin. And you just get to watch what, you know, like you said, these German shepherds like fighting alongside children who are wearing cardboard and are being given grenades and pistols.
And like, it's the clash of horror and humor that makes this movie so freaking great. Like, I just I'm weeping. Like, as soon as it slows down a little bit and the music starts and the sounds of the battle kind of fall to the background, I just start crying and you just weep at the loss of innocence as like the reality of everything that Jojo has believed comes crashing down on him.
Like, it's just absolutely brutal.Bob
Yeah.Bob
All right, guys. With that, let's get into our final segment of the day, which we call Let's Make It a Double.Jingle
We're near the end of the episode. So thanks for listening to the Film and Whiskey Show. Let's pair another film with this one, even if it's a struggle.
It's the final segment of the day.Bob
Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is presented by Blackwood Distilling Company. It's the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature.
Brad, I'm going to go first. I'll get mine out of the way. You said something earlier that almost made me change my mind.
You said that this is Taika at his most restrained. And that is what I always say about the Tarantino movie, Django Unchained. I think Django actually would be a really good pairing with this.
But I'm going to go even more wild, even more esoteric here, Brad. I'm going to pair this with another movie about a young man who is often on his own, trying to find his way in the world, trying to find what he believes amidst an oppressive family environment who's guided by a not real illusory being who helps him achieve his goals. I'm talking about my boy Remy in the movie Ratatouille.
We're going to pair up Jojo Rabbit with the floating fictional chef that helps Ratatouille, dude.Brad
Would the great Gustave have been a. That dude was in The Resistance for sure. I was about to say, I think he would have been welcoming.Bob
I see him like in an old cartoon, like on top of a rack waiting on a German to walk underneath him and hitting him with a rolling pin. That's what I like to believe he does.Brad
I, for some reason, all I can think of is, oh, what's the TV show? I saw nothing. Hogan's Heroes.
Yeah, yeah. Hogan's Heroes. There we go.Zachary Johnston
Yeah, I just see him. I see him in the back of the cafe in Paris and then Glorious Bastards making that ridiculously stiff whipped cream and be like, it's not ready yet.Bob
That's incredible. Oh, that's a good pairing, Bob. I like that.
Thank you so much. Uh, who would like to go next? Zach, you go for it, man.Zachary Johnston
What would you pair this movie with? I really tried to pull back from my film nerd. Like, I wanted to be like, you should watch Shoah, all nine hours of it.
No, no, no. And then I was like, because, you know, Downfall, which also follows a kid through the fall of Berlin, which was a choice. But then it's like, that film's more about Hitler in a different way.
And it's just sort of, it feels like too much. And then I was thinking of Come and See, which is probably the greatest anti-war film of all time and the absurdity of that war. And also Through the Eyes of Children.
But just, that would be, that's a film you watch once, maybe twice in your life.Bob
That's a tough set.Zachary Johnston
It's, oh God, yeah. It's a tough set. I'm, you know what, I thought of this watching the film, and it's sort of a fuck Hitler, watch The Producers.
Because that's another great, fucking Hitler's a buffoon, idiot, piece of shit. Like, and just, when, you know, I don't, you know, I love the Zero Mostel and... Gene Wilder.
Gene Wilder. Thank you. I almost said Willy Wonka version of it.
But I'm also a huge Nathan Lane fan, and his version of Matthew Broderick's great as well. Oh, it's such a good musical, man. And I do think the music is a little bit better in the Nathan Lane Broderick version, because they're just, it's just, it's better.
It's just better music. I'm sorry. It's the same music, but done better.
But Springtime for Hitler, when Hitler comes out and just like, I was just a paper hanger. Like, it's so good, man. It's the perfect compliment to Taika's Hitler.
And also lighthearted enough where you can have another laugh. Because I feel like with JoJo, you're gonna laugh and cry. And then with The Producers, you can just really just laugh and let it all go.
And for me, The Producers is the perfect pairing for this.Brad
Man, I try to get to the end of our episodes without having spoiled my, let's make it a double. And technically, I didn't, I was going to pair this with Dr. Strangelove. It just feels like such a great pairing of the farcical comedy of what happens when you take yourselves too seriously.
You know, obviously, Cold War, World War II, two iterations of a similar war, I would say. So these, I just think that those would be, it would be a very funny back-to-back experience that would weirdly make you think about the world a lot.Bob
All five. Brad's baby. Brad, there's a really great movie that came out maybe five years ago called The Death of Stalin.
It's a satire movie that is like right in the vein of this, like almost pitch perfect to the exact same tone of this movie. And it's just about like all of the backstabbing that happened after Stalin died. And like all the members of his cabinet are trying to like take control of the Soviet Union as it's falling apart.
And like Steve Buscemi is the lead role. And Jason Isaacs, the guy who played, not Jason. Is it Jason Isaacs?
Yeah, he's. Who played Lucius Malfoy. But like everybody in that movie speaks in their own like regular accent.
So like Steve Buscemi is just like an American playing a guy that's, you know, made like Boris something or other. No, he's Khrushchev. Steve Buscemi is playing Khrushchev.Zachary Johnston
Oh, that's right. He is Khrushchev.Bob
And that's right.Zachary Johnston
In a ridiculous like belly with no fat suit. So it's just absurd. Does he have like the birthmark?Brad
Oh yeah.Zachary Johnston
Oh yeah, he's got, no, that's Gorbachev, but he's got like the Khrushchev hairline. The belly, but skinny, right? Like being.
It's really funny.Bob
You would like that movie a lot, Brad.Zachary Johnston
Everyone. I'm in, man. I'm ready.
And it's just Buscemi being like he's in a Tarantino movie. It's great.Bob
Yeah, it's just regular Steve Buscemi. All right, guys. So those are all of our let's make it a double picks.
I hope that we have given you a plethora of movies to go watch. No matter what you choose to pair this movie up with, you can always make it a double with Blackwood Distilling Company. We're lucky enough to have the man, the myth, the legend here with us tonight.
Zach, once again, thank you so much for everything Blackwood has done for the show this season, but for this freaking delicious whiskey too, man.Brad
I was going to say, if you were going to make, if you were going to drink a Blackwood whiskey with Jojo Rabbit, which would you pair with it?Zachary Johnston
I think I got to go toasted 105 rye. I poured one over a rock last night as I watched this movie, actually. And it went down nicely.
The wife enjoyed it too.Bob
There you go. All right, guys, let's give this movie some final scores. Once again, I will go first because I'm the low man here.
I think I'm going to land at a seven and a half on this movie. It's a really good movie.Zachary Johnston
Come on.Bob
I like, I like it a lot. I think it's like it just misses the mark in enough ways that I'm with your point earlier, Zach, if he had had another year to get his bearings about him again, I think we could have been looking at a 10 out of 10 for me at least, but I'm going to beat a 7.5 bread.Brad
Queen of refuse.Zachary Johnston
I, not that my vote matters, but I do think if he had made this when he was still hungry in like 2012, he would have been, it would have been best picture. It would have been best director. He would have swept even with the same cast.
They were all still amazing then. I mean, the kids would have been different, obviously. So yeah, I still, it's a nine out of 10 because of that.
It's just like he made it, he made it, he directed in the wrong window. And I hate saying that because this movie is like I said, I cried three times and it's hilarious and I love this movie. I've watched it probably 10 times, but you know, it doesn't, yeah.
And things you love don't have to be perfect. I love imperfect. Yes.Brad
Yeah. I'm at a nine and a half, Bob. Oh, okay.
I think that this movie hits all the emotional notes. It's funny. It's horrific.
It makes you cry. It has two of the best performances of the decade from Rockwell and Johansson. There's just so much to love about this movie.
Like forget all of the double features we recommended, like just go watch this movie. Like if you have not seen Jojo Rabbit, go watch it as soon as you can. I think it has so much to offer.Zachary Johnston
In your pantheon, like I'm usually doing this at the beginning, but what was your criteria? It had to make a hundred million. It had to be Oscar nominated.
It had to 20th century, obviously. Did it actually meet all those criteria? Cause I feel like not a lot of people saw this movie.Bob
No, it only made $33 million in North America. I saw. So it was nominated for best picture.
I don't know if it's IMDb top 250, Brad. I didn't look that up. It's definitely not Letterboxd top 250.
So it may be that only one of the criteria was met, but it was also like we looked at the list and Brad's like, Jojo Rabbit, we're doing that one.Zachary Johnston
But so my question being, does this then go on your guys's list for a film of the century so far? Is this a modern classic, Brad?Brad
Yes. Yeah, I'm gonna say no. Like I, I would say yes, because of the performances and the, the ability to walk the very fine line of making a funny movie about Hitler and Nazi Germany.
Like, like, how do you make a funny movie about the third Reich that works? Yeah. And they do it incredibly well.Bob
And I think movies like this are kind of sadly getting more urgent. You know, Brad, we were talking yesterday about Gen Z and their, their relentless need to have characters look right down the barrel of the camera and say, this person did a bad thing. We need you to know that this is bad.
And I feel like this movie, you know, it's a pretty good example of that. Like it's doing it in a comedic way, so it doesn't seem grating, but it tells you very clearly who the good guys are, who the bad guys are, and why what the bad guys are doing is bad. So who knows, man, it might, it might pick up more and more support in the coming years.Zachary Johnston
I think it will. I think this has legs on it. I mean, not to digress, but Bob and I, we were having this conversation about what films this year people are going to be talking about in 20 years.
And I think Jojo Rabbit is going to be something that's talked about for a long time. And I think we mentioned like the Shoah Foundation using it as an instructional tool. I think that's a good sign that this film is going to, I don't know, a modern classic, like, you know, we don't, we'll have to do another episode in 2035, but I do believe that this will become a modern classic and it might be considered one of Taika's best movies by the end of it all.
You know what I mean? It's certainly one of his top ones because he threads a needle that very few artists have been able to thread.Bob
All right, guys, this has been Zach Johnson. He's our buddy. He's our pal.
He's like a 10-time guest on the show now. Zach, where can we find you? And maybe spoil one thing that's coming down the pike for you.Zachary Johnston
Um, so I'm still on IG a little bit. I, uh, ZTP whiskey, or I also run our, uh, Blackwood distilling IG, uh, you find what I'm doing there. Um, so we are expanding.
We're going to be in Colorado soon. Um, we're also working on New Jersey and New York, um, and just big spoiler, watch out for me. We're going to have our first collab in, in Germany, actually in Berlin.
Uh, we're doing a collab there. And so we're going to have a, our first international release. So more on that soon.Bob
Oh, that's exciting stuff. We're all going to Germany, folks. Did you hear that?
We're going to find Jojo. Blackwood's flying all of us. Thank you, Blackwood.
We appreciate it. Uh, I, I promise nothing. All right.
Once again, this is Zach Johnston. This is Blackwood distilling company. We will be back next week looking at the 2013 Spike Jones film her.
So we're kind of taking a bit of a hard left turn here out of Jojo rabbit, but an exciting one nonetheless. Join us for that next week. But until then, I'm Bob book.
I'm Brad Gee. And we'll see you next time.Zach Johnston
Chief Brand Officer, Blackwood Distilling & Renegade Whiskey Critic
Zach Johnston has lived about five whiskey careers in one lifetime. From Berlin’s high-end bar scene to judging international spirits competitions, Zach brings global expertise to every pour. As the former lead drinks writer at UPROXX, he built one of the most-read whiskey columns on the internet, known for pairing top-tier spirits with pop culture deep dives. Now, he serves as Chief Brand Officer and VP of International Sales for Blackwood Distilling in Kentucky. On Film & Whiskey, Zach’s blend of irreverence, authority, and perfectly off-the-wall pairings has made him a fan favorite, whether he’s sipping Barrell Dovetail during Jojo Rabbit or getting philosophical over Ikiru with a glass of Mossburn.
